How oppressive can I be without being a dick?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 21, 2016, 10:23 p.m. by capriom85
So I have this Grand Arbiter Augustine IV commander deck. The basic idea of the deck is to oppress the board while accelerating my own board state, it's kind of his thing. my group tends to whine about it lately, though. Keep in mind that they feel things like how broken Edric, Spymaster of Trest is are totally fine with them.My question to the TO Community is how oppressive should Grand Arbiter be before it really am just being a dick?Things I do run that draw hate: Grand Arbiter Augustine IV, ghosty prison, Sphere of Safety, Propaganda, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Cryptic Command, Austere Command, Medomai the Ageless, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Consecrated Sphinx, Spelltithe Enforcer, and Rhystic Study. This is all pretty standard Arbiter tech.This I'm not running (on purpose): Armageddon, Enter the Infinite, Vendilion Clique/Tunnel Vision/Spin into Myth, Devastation Tide, any infinite mana synergies, and I'm fairly light on counters, generally saving the 6 I run for spells and rarely counter a creature since I am already pretty oppressive there.So...are they wimps, am I the dick, or is this just generally how people react to Grand Arbiter Augustine IV?
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #3
uum... Edic isn't broken. He is a fair draw spell. its like saying Rhystic Study is broken.
and they are absolute wimps. If they can't handle some board control they should run avacyn as their fucking commander. Seriously, its EDH. There's ALWAYS control, and you just have to learn to accept it.
now, if you were running a deck that completely shut everyone out of playing, like having a "win con" of Humility Opalescence, then you'd be a dick, but you aren't, so there isn't a problem.
April 21, 2016 11:10 p.m.
Megalomania says... #4
I have seen GAA decks that seems to have no other plan but to stall the game or make it close to unplayable. Unless this gives you a clear path towards a win, I would classify it under being a dick.
If your play is to lock everyone out of the game and win via Jace TMS, then I guess it's ok. But if you feel like you are already ruining everyone else's game to the point no one else is enjoying it but you, I suggest finding another group or building a different deck.
The feeling of being "better" than your group is nice but it isn't worth losing friends over. Unless you are trying to compensate for something.
April 21, 2016 11:17 p.m.
KillDatBUG says... #5
There may have been one point where I'd have been like "well, maybe you could talk to them about fine-tuning the deck...", but... Yeah, I agree with DERPLINGSUPREME. Tell them to fuck off if they can't deal with it. ESPECIALLY if you're playing to win your local Commander tournaments.
April 21, 2016 11:27 p.m.
Subjective question is subjective. Personally,I would say that cards like Propaganda, Sphere of Safety, etc. aren't annoying in the slightest.
And sure, while Consecrated Sphinx and Rhystic Study are annoying, they're just cards. If I don't have any way to deal with them, then I haven't built my deck properly.
Don't get me wrong, you're being a dick if you knowingly sit down with a vastly more powerful deck than the rest of the people at the table.
But in general, a lot of people need to develop a thicker skin when it comes to playing against deck archetypes that their own deck falls over too. The attitude that "I shouldn't have to modify my deck and that people should regulate their decks around mine and the level at which I play" is utter crap. It shows a complete ineptitude of not only the game but the person's ability to grow and adapt.
April 22, 2016 1:37 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco, there is a good chance in going to rotate that card in along with Armageddon just to show them how much worse it can be.
DERPLINGSUPREME, you clearly have no played against any kind of skilled Edric players. There is a reason he is banned in duel commander. He fits into a variety of deck types and all of them include seemingly endless combat, draw, and extra turns. Edric can be more oppressive than Arbiter in certain shells.
Megalomania, the basic idea of my Arbiter deck is to slow your board and accelerate mine into large flying creatures that pump 15-20 damage at my opponents per turn that also give me bonuses for attacking or just being on the board. I'm not looking to prolong anything, just slow my opponents.
enpc, my Arbiter deck is my multiplayer deck. It has a ton of variety in it and the rest of the table has perfectly strong and able decks as well. As I mentioned there is an Esric player who explodes within the first 3-4 turns if not kept in check. We also have guys that have multiple decks that are all havoc inducers. No one isn't competitive or over their heads. It's just that they like to attack into opponents a lot and I usually end up with one or more prisons on the board by the time they catch up mana wise. They whine and say I'm oppressive because they're 200 goblins and 10,000 elves have nowhere to go against me without infinite mana. It's gets under my skin a bit BC I don't win a high enough percentage of our matches to say I'm oppressively out of defeat range for my group. They whine about extra turns: Medomai the Ageless is the ONLY extra turn card I run. Kill him! They whine about prisons. Destroy them...every color has access to enchantment and artifact hate. PWs? They are powerful...and vulnerable. Kill them too.
April 22, 2016 8:03 a.m.
ForgeCityGames says... #8
I would say Consecrated Sphinx is a bit dickish. but i say that about that card all the time and people at my LGS run it and I dont give them any flack for it. my only issue is its pretty brainlessly strong in a 4-man pod and tends to devolve the game into who can copy or steal it (like prophet of kruphix did) then just freewin by having a massive hand in 1 round of turns.
as for the rest of your deck i would agree they are being wimps.
but i think i can see where they draw the line. they dont mind Edric, Spymaster of Trest because while he does encourage tunneling others, he gives the players decisions to make, a way to interact with the boardstate. Grand Arbiter Augustine IV does not. he just states "you cannot play this until your NEXT land" and you stack a load of those effects. you cannot do X unless Y. and then you just increase the value of Y. so they feel like they arent able to play thier deck.
I know thats not how it really is, I play derevi in a similar manner. but sometimes reactive denial is better than proactive. better to flash in a field wipe then say "you cannot play creatures", because at least then your opponents got to cast the creatures, and get some use out of them.
maybe just try asking yourself how much of your deck does one thing (forcing them to make choices) and how much does the other (denying them ability to play). tough choices are interesting, and provide a challenging game experience, and win or lose they know they had a meaningful impact. not being able to play is basically not playing.
April 22, 2016 8:27 a.m.
From your description, it just sounds like your friends need a cup of concrete. If they have 100+ creatures (especially elves) but cant get through a few pillow for cards then they deserve to lose.
As for why Edric is banned in duel commander, well he gets seriously broken when his ability is one sided. There is still a huge advantage to playing him but he isn't as good in four player free for all.
April 22, 2016 10:03 a.m.
ForgeCityGames, unless I have Thought Vessel or Reliquary Tower on the board I rarely fill my hand beyond 7 or 8 with Consecrated Sphinx unless I know I have a lot of plays or a lot of things to discard that I don't want. Rarely do I use it to blindly dig through my deck. I generally do that well enough with my suit of draw spells, tutors, and planeswalkers. I play Consecrated Sphinx way less dickish than most I would say. iys far from a "draw 12 cards each round" for me.
As for how much of my stuff is really just copies of the same card: I run 4 prisons, Ghostly Prison, Norn's Annex, Sphere of Safety, and Propaganda. That may be excessive with enchant and artifact tutors in the deck since it gives me a decent shot at having 2 of these prisons out each game consistently. It is kinda what my deck wants to do, though. I run 7 counters, Hinder, Spell Crumple, Counterspell, Cryptic Command, Ojutai's Command, and Render Silent. 2 are not always counters, 3 are mostly to disrupt combo pieces, and 1 is just the best counter ever created and I would be dumb to not play it. The 7th is Rewind. It's basically a 0 cmc counter. I run 2 cards that tax casting cost: Grand Arbiter Augustine IV and the one that taxes enchantments and artifacts by 2. My opponents rarely pay more than 1 extra mana for spells. I don't do the usually included extra taxes like "all spells cost x more". I run a lot of walkers: Tamiyo, Narset, Teferi, Elspeth, Venser, and 4 Jaces (Sculptor, Beleren, Architect, and Unraveler). Other than that it's all pretty much creatures, 3 sweepers, and general spells like removal, draw, life gain. Of course the creatures include things like Teferi, Mage of ZhalfirVenser, Shaper Savant, and Sphinx of the Final Word so it can get a little non interactive and taxing when you can't do stuff in my turn and you also can't counter my 25 mana Sphinx's Revelation on your turn, but with 0 creature tutors it rarely happens that I see them all every game. I run no infinite combos, I don't do the Lab Maniac win trick, yet I'm the target most of the time. I don't mind because he games are super interesting, but I don't get why I draw the hate and the Esric guy is left unchecked to the follow think (often): T1 Concordant Crossroads, T2 ramp, Sol Ring, and Intruder Alarm,T3 Glimpse of Nature, Edric, Spymaster of Trest, into mana dudes allowing for huge draw and attack potential before anyone is on their game yet. I especially like when Imperious Perfect is in the early game with Intruder Alarm. It's a T3-4 win with only my prisons to save me if I don't have a counter. Who is the bigger dick? I say neither.
April 22, 2016 10:12 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #11
Since none of the links worked (he is Agustin, not Augustine) Grand Arbiter Augustin IV.
If they are ok with Edric they need to quit their bitching. GAA4 is an annoying commander because he slows games down in my opinion. But that is the point of the deck, to accelerate yourself while slowing down your opponents. Even though I think he is annoying, that doesn't mean that they have the right to complain about your choices. They instead need to come up with a way to play around him or remove him. If you end up going full on mana denial and slow win cons with the deck then that is a bit dickish, but up until that point I personally don't see a problem.
April 22, 2016 10:18 a.m.
Be as oppressive as you want, make them adjust to you and up their game
April 22, 2016 10:34 a.m.
Gidgetimer, thanks. Autocorrect sucks.
MarkerD, I can make this decks o much more oppressive, and at a larger EDH tournament environment I definitely would, but I don't want to be losing friends over MtG, ya know? I just wanted some opinions on if I am being overly oppressive. If that vast majority said o was I would tweak it down a bit. I recently added an Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger and people whined until someone shot him with a Path to Exile so I figured they were being a bit less than fair with me. Maybe I'll do a game where I run Kozilek, the Great Distortion and just counter literally everything just to drive a point home. Then I'll Laboratory Maniac for he win.
April 22, 2016 11:03 a.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #14
@capriom85 I'm not saying he's bad, I'm just saying he's never a threat. The rest of the deck he's commanding might be, but he himself is just a whatever guy.
and he's banned in duel cause you can just run 34 land and 65 1 drop creatures. :|
and they really shouldn't whine over a Newlamog. Seriously, these people you're describing seem like the equivalent of children who throw a temper-tantrum b/c they didn't get the toy they wanted. I would highly advise playing against other people once in a while.
April 22, 2016 11:05 a.m. Edited.
DERPLINGSUPREME, that's a good point that Edric is t the actual problem. I didn't think you meant he was a lousy choice.
As for my playgroup, it's the closest shop and we tend to play Standard and Modern more than Commander. I am the newest member to the group (a year ago) and they are salty because I stopped by combo shenanigans when they whined first and still win sometimes. It's not a big deal, I was just worried that I was being a dick with my choice.
April 22, 2016 11:51 a.m.
On a totally unrelated note...does anyone feel an artifact, enchantment, and Planeswalker heavy deck like this one would benefit enough from a Karmic Justice to include a copy in place of something less amazing? It definitely forces thoughtful decision making when picking off my prisons, planeswalkers, etc.
April 22, 2016 2:25 p.m.
Augustin isn't so bad. He's annoying as a control commander, but not bitch-worthy. Brago, King Eternal decks are way worse in those colors. Like it's been mentioned, your playgroup just needs to adapt to your deck. He's by no means unbeatable. It's really not hard to just remove him enough times to not be worth casting. As for the prison stacks, who cares? If they can't remove them that's their folly as a player and a deck-builder. A good deck does what it intends to do, protects itself from other strategies, and can deal with the cards that prevent its strategy.
My personal opinion is very anti-infinite combo, to the point where I won't play in a pod that consistently has them; however, pretty much anything shy of that is fair game, minus Armageddon effects. The thing is, I understand that this is my opinion- not necessarily that of others. I just don't like something that just stops gameplay out of nowhere (takes the fun out of playing for me. Very anti-climactic). I don't really bitch about them though. I either just pick up and start the next game, or stop playing in that pod. Same with archetypes I can't stand (Like Sen Triplets).
As for Karmic Justice, I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand, it's an okay insurance policy against noncreature removal. On the other, I've never run it, and I've never been impressed by it on my opponents side of the board. There are plenty of ways around it: Perilous Vault, Merciless Eviction, Cyclonic Rift, or just simply ignoring it. You just have to weigh whether its very conditional ability is worth a card slot in your deck, in your meta. Personally I say it's not, but I know neither your list nor your meta.
April 22, 2016 4:18 p.m.
Let it be noted that I added a Kira, Great Glass-Spinner to this deck last night. This one was a dick move, and I'm happy with the choice. She Went in place of my #7 counter. I figure I get a counter out of it anyway.
April 23, 2016 1:23 p.m.
It sounds like, for your playgroup, GAA4 can become too oppressive rather easily, given the right combination of cards. Say he's in play making their stuff cost 1 more. If you drop Teferi you limit their interaction to only on their turn. If they try to kill one of the restricting creatures, you counter it. They have to spend even more resources to finish the job or else wait until their next turn to try again. This is 3 levels of control they have to fight through just to remove one element that's frustrating them. I'm not saying you should change your deck, just be mindful of how many walls your opponents have to fight through before adding more layers to your defense.
Now, you say you don't often win. Due to that, I'd say continue to play the deck and improve it, and if they whine point out that someone else won last time so obviously it's not as oppressive as they think. Heck, you stated your main win con was damage, not even combo. If your deck gets to the point where it's winning all the time even when teamed up against, then its crossed the line. Ideally they should improve their deck to answer yours. Whether they like it or not, it'd be good for them and their skills as a MtG player and deckbuilder.
I don't know how old age-wise your playgroup is but ultimately if they really truly whine like children then they ought to instead improve their attitude and express their frustration in an assertive manner. They should explain why they feel your deck is unfair. If they produce a good argument as to why a particular card is too debilitating perhaps their whining can be justified.
April 26, 2016 4:14 p.m.
Deruvid, very thoughtful response. I'd say I win just a little more often than any of the other people in my group. The odds would be higher if I wasn't teamed up on every time we play. They don't wait until I am the threat, they remove me first regardless of how quickly I go to setting up my network of walls.I see your point saying Arbiter, Teferi, and a counter in my hand is a bit oppressive, but so is infinite elves with forestwalk. The green player is cool with that coming at him. I really think they all have something against the particular style of deck since they are creature based. I'm going reevaluate how many of each "layer" I have in my deck. I am pretty happy with 6 counters so that won't be changing but I may able to drop a little bit in number on my prison cards, like maybe just run Propaganda and Ghostly Prison and take out Norn's Annex and Sphere of Safety.
April 26, 2016 4:42 p.m.
Well, it sounds to me that their teaming-up was a learned habit. If you win slightly more than the average player in your group even through them teaming up against you, it sounds like they are correct in teaming up against you, since if they didn't their chance of winning would be greatly diminished.
Even if your deck wins predominately through damage, if the group gives you "breathing room" they're instantly playing your game, as a blue white player. As a blue player myself, I understand that if I get any breathing room, I'm very, very difficult to beat. That's why I took all the win conditions out of my Thassa deck. I like playing blue, but I don't really care about winning that much.
It's also pretty important to note that a lot of people just hate control. They don't like to be told they can't do something; and just the threat of that possibility means they have reason to eliminate you first. It's not always justified (or smart) to kill the control player first, but it's a common line of play for many players.
April 26, 2016 5:29 p.m.
Fleetwood-Mat says... #22
It sounds like your deck is a pretty good deck. The big question is; does your deck outclass other decks in terms of quality and quantity of staple cards? If so, then you might want to consider dropping some of the high end staples from it. Rhystic Study is a degenerate card that I think should be banned from Commander... same thing with Mystic Remora. I never build decks with those cards because I prefer playing games that are actually challenging, and seeing interactions I've never seen before... those cards are just blatant abuses of multiplayer settings, and people who play those cards kinda come off as trollish and power mongering rather than innovative and fun (in fact, they suck the fun out of the game completely). Another card I really think should be banned in Commander is Narset, Enlightened Master. A hexproof commander that does what she does in those colours is absolutely degenerate. Grand Arbiter Augustine IV isn't really an overpowered commander, so you don't really need to swap him out, but you should avoid using the stupidly degenerate cards if you want your games to be fun for everyone. When my decks become too powerful for everyone else in my playgroup (and I win almost every game) is when I move to a new deck. The last deck I had to do that with was Oona, Queen of the Fae, and it was consistently killing the entire board at once with Hive Mind, Slaughter Pact and Pact of Negation, and if not that, then it would be cards like Bloodchief Ascension, Liliana's Caress or just seriously heavy UB control stuff. Now I'm working on a different archetype so that games aren't only fun for me, but everyone else too.
April 26, 2016 5:49 p.m.
I'm going to post my list tonight so everyone can see what the hub-bub in my group is over.
I feel like this deck is just about done and exactly where I want Otto be and its about time to focus on a new commander anyway. I kinda am thinking that Sigarda, Heron's Grace looks fun. So for the most part I'm not going to be putting $ into Arbiter any longer, but I think that my playgroup will be happy to see me come at them with aggro.
April 26, 2016 5:57 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #24
@capriom85 why Sigarda, Heron's Grace? Sigarda, Host of Herons is better. well, for voltron and most things I guess, but the new one can be okay for human tribal.
April 26, 2016 6:54 p.m.
Megalomania says... #25
I changed my deck from a t3-t6 Oona combo deck to a group hug zedruu deck. Games became a lot more fun for everyone. I still manage to win a decent amount of games and got everyone off my back. Good luck with the Sigarda deck. Hope your group finds it more to their liking.
April 26, 2016 8:50 p.m.
I'm going for the human tribal thing, DERPLINGSUPREME. I need something 100% different for the times I don't feel like taking the heat or just want to be less oppressive (yes control players get that way sometimes). Thanks, Megalomania!I have the list for Sigarda, I just need the paper cards now. PucaTrade has been a big help as most of them are $0.50 and under bulk rares.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #2
You should play Back to Basics....no? LMAO.
April 21, 2016 10:38 p.m.