How long before Helm of the Host is banned?

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on April 13, 2018, 5:21 a.m. by TypicalTimmy

I mean, c'mon... Helm of the Host seems OP as **** in this format.

Also, does the copy count toward commander damage?

I mean, just consider it on Aurelia, the Warleader...

Thoughts?

Panas says... #2

Hello :)

It does not count toward commander damage, as that is a property of the card and the token that comes into play is treated as a different entity (as it should be).

Also, although the helm does provide a very powerful interaction with Aurelia (i.e. two additional combat steps, and up to two untap triggers for your creatures), I don't think it is something to ban or even worry about. Yes, etb effects will benefit, but at the cost of 9 total mana to play and equip on any creature without added protection makes it gimmicky at best. If it was as powerful as you are implying then Progenitor Mimic should have been banned a very long time ago.

My two cents on this card is: play it, enjoy it, but it's nothing to write home about :)

April 13, 2018 5:31 a.m.

Boza says... #3

It is actually infinite number of combats with aurelia and the helm, but other than that I agree that an infinite combo for 4+5+7=16 mana is not that impressive.

April 13, 2018 5:40 a.m.

Rzepkanut says... #4

I think its quite balanced, it costs a ton of mana to go infinite.

April 13, 2018 6:32 a.m.

Panas says... #5

Boza you are correct sir; I misread the card. Aurelia decks get a staple then, to play with Sigarda's Aid :p

April 13, 2018 6:37 a.m.

griffstick says... #6

Not ban worthy. Blade of Selves does similar things. That's just fine. You know what's ban worthy? Palinchron

April 13, 2018 6:58 a.m.

SteelSentry says... #7

Powerful? Yes, but I don't think bannable. There are plenty of 2- and 3-card combos that are legal in the format. Ashnod's Altar is an incredible powerhouse, and there are a lot of ways that goes infinite, especially with Eldrazi Displacer or Nim Deathmantle and any token producer. Definitely worth keeping an eye on though.

April 13, 2018 7:10 a.m.

Nillstan says... #8

And lets not forget thee glorious meme that is Sol Ring, which can enable turn 2 victories

April 13, 2018 7:19 a.m.

Durkle says... #9

Wait, so do none of you realize it goes infinite with Godo, Bandit Warlord, and he even tutors it? Also goes infinite with Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker since the tokens aren't legendary. Also goes infinite with Medomai the Ageless I believe, since the text that he cant attack on extra turns only applies to the one that attacks, and doesnt include the new copies.

I think you guys are fixated too much on the speed of the combo. The problem isn't how FAST it is, it's how accessible it is. Having a 1-card combo with your commander isn't healthy, no matter how you slice it. Not even saying I think it needs to be banned, I just think you guys are thinking about it wrong. Of course there are faster combos, but they typically require significantly more investment or luck.

Also, consider that you get the token whether you attack or not, and the token doesn't get exiled. This means you could just use it to make copies of your commander every turn, and essentially double all of its text, then triple it, etc. Like imagine having this thing on GAAIV, or Elesh Norn, or Meren, or anything really.

I also don't like the reasoning that "because this one thing isn't banned, this won't be banned". I want Deadeye Navigator banned just as much as the next guy, but it has nothing to do with this card. You shouldn't use that as an excuse to not evaluate it.

Point is, I think the design of this card is really horrible. I wish it wasn't being printed, or at the very least would be designed better. Time will tell whether it actually needs a ban or not, but I don't like it regardless.

April 13, 2018 10:10 a.m.

Durkle says... #10

Should probably clarify that the kiki-jiki combo doesnt actually win unless you also have like impact tremors or purphoros before someone tries to tell me I'm dumb. Its the worst of the combos I listed, but it still works l0l

April 13, 2018 10:15 a.m.

Rzepkanut says... #11

There's so many legal 1 card I win combos that work with a variety of commanders, that this doesn't seem broken ...or even unusually powerful to me. It's good for sure but its lots of mana to use, so it's quite fair. End of story. Look if you have a ton of mana in EDH you are ready to win in any number of ways, with any number of combos. So what's the problem with this?

April 13, 2018 10:38 a.m.

dbpunk says... #12

The truth is, for as many combos as youre going to get, its not like youll be getting any protection against field wipes for the equipped creature. They still can be gotten rid of. Not to mention, if you had the amount of Mana needed to use any combos, Im sure an opponent had a way to disrupt it or stop it from being relevant. And the fact everyone will probably use it, means that theyll also know how to deal with it.

Its not banworthy, but on the other hand I dont think itll win the game so much as give a hellish advantage that can be taken away. Thaybbeing said, itll still be great in edh.

April 13, 2018 11:07 a.m.

DrukenReaps says... #13

It is neat but it is neat in the way that Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind + Curiosity is neat. There are plenty of other busted things in commander, just take a look MagicalHacker - List of All 2-Card Infinite Combos.

What you should ask yourself is "what makes a combo ban worthy?" because they just unbanned Protean Hulk which goes great with Flash.

Durkle have you ever seen anyone use Mirror Gallery and Followed Footsteps or similar copy effect? Yes Helm of the Host brings this down to one card so maybe that makes it comparable to say Prophet of Kruphix but if doing this is as busted as you think people would already be doing it in greater numbers.

https://edhrec.com/cards/mirror-gallery

As it stands mirror gallery is a pretty fringe effect and going back to the comparison with prophet Vedalken Orrery and untappers like Seedborn Muse are used far more often to do much dirtier things than win through the combat step. Ultimately that is what Helm of the Host will do more often than not, win through combat, and that should probably be encouraged. So few decks seem to want to win that way evidence being of the 5 four color commanders the only one that doesn't make the top all-timers is Saskia the Unyielding the swingiest of all swingers.

This card is cool and strong, I'll definitely be breaking it in half but I don't see anything remotely like it on the ban list except maybe Prophet of Kruphix and that is a stretch since their only similarity is that they tape two cards together.

April 13, 2018 12:30 p.m.

Delta-117 says... #14

Well didn't some people think at one point Paradox Engine was going to get banned if i'm not mistaken? I think this will be a similar case.

April 13, 2018 1:24 p.m.

SteelSentry says... #15

The biggest thing with Helm of the Host is that it is, ultimately, easy to interact with. They have to equip it, go to combat, and have their orginal commander survive the entire time they're comboing off (otherwise they stop getting copies), not to mention a Fog or Seht's Tiger stops it in it's tracks, being a combat-based combo. That's a lot easier than Flash/Protean Hulk, which only needs to resolve Flash and not have a Rest in Peace out, or Food Chain Prossh, which only needs to resolve Food Chain really. I have both of those combos at my LGS, and figuring out when they're going to combo off, and more importantly, how to interact with them in some decks (in my Jund deck I literally can't do anything to Flash Hulk), is incredibly difficult. I would hate to see Helm of the Host banned and Protean Hulk and Food Chain not even considered.

April 13, 2018 2:31 p.m.

griffstick says... #16

There isn't many things that this card does better then Blade of Selves

April 13, 2018 3:11 p.m.

gtoast99 says... #17

Yeah, it's not going to see a ban imho. As stated above, it's not amazing in most decks as people seem to thing. It's an expensive, powerful, easily disrupted play. Far from broken.

The best way to abuse it is Godo as stated above. A group of us have been working on a competitive Godo primer on the red discord, and it's performing quite well. You should check it out if you're so inclined. The zero card combo in the command zone makes it actually viable, and theres a lot more interaction and resilience than you might think from mono red. It's on tapped out, just look for "Waiting for Godo"

April 18, 2018 1:38 p.m.

bryanedds says... #18

anyone know why tappedout is showing Helm of the Host as illegal in my EDH deck? - https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/godo-dragons-gopher/

May 5, 2018 12:11 a.m.

DrukenReaps says... #19

bryanedds it takes time for the website to update everything give it a few weeks and they should have everything "legal"

May 5, 2018 2 p.m.

bryanedds says... #20

Thanks! It kinda freaked me out because I thought helm had been emergency banned or something! :)

May 5, 2018 4:07 p.m.

jkempic says... #21

I'm just hyped to get to use the helm in my Atraxa superfriends deck, to get stupid amounts of proliferate triggers. The helm is certainly going to be a strong card, but it's well designed. It's powerful, but slow, somewhat expensive even by EDH standards, and is easy to interact with. It can and will end games outright if no one had interaction up, but that's true of a lot of things in the format. I mean, just take a look at a competitive Zur list--those things are nuts.

May 7, 2018 5:52 a.m.

Billgod247 says... #22

I got a turn 5 win with Helm of the Host in a Kaalia of the Vast deck. I used Vedalken Orrery to Play Helm on the end step, then untapped and equipped it to Aurelia, the Warleader which had previously entered on a Kaalia trigger. Then entered combat, swung with each new token on each combat. I did swing with the original Aurelia so as to not lose her to some combat trick. T1 Sensei's Divining Top helped a bit with all the luck I had in doing this. A comment was made as the game ended that I may have stacked it due to it being such dumb luck.

May 12, 2018 10:43 a.m.

Schuesseled says... #23

not really ban worthy.

May 13, 2018 5:39 a.m.

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