LEOVOLD IS BANNED!
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on April 24, 2017, 4:03 p.m. by Phaetion
Oh, and Protean Hulk is unbanned. Grab them because I smell a buyout.
Discuss
Text for those who can't access it:
"APRIL 24, 2017
BANNED
Leovold, Emissary of Trest
UNBANNED
Protean Hulk
RULES
No changes.
We had hopes for Leovold and gave him every opportunity to prove that he would be strong but safe in the format. He simply wasnt. Leovold violates the tenet of creating undesirable game states by easily locking other players out of the game. We prefer to encourage situations in which everyone gets to play, and its too easy for Leovold to create the opposite, even unintentionally.
On the other hand, we feel as though its time to let Protean Hulk off the leash. A number of factors led to this decision. Support within the community has been tilting toward Protean Hulk for quite some time. Inside the Rules Committee, we have been leaning in that direction for a while as well, but didnt have enough of a consensus. Now we do. We acknowledge that the card will be strong, but are of the opinion that it wont be the centralizing factor it once would have been. Back when Protean Hulk was banned, both creatures and graveyard control were nowhere near as strong as they are today. We know combo possibilities exist with the card, but they need to be specifically built around, so to us it becomes a great value card instead of a dangerous combo piece in casual environments. We suspect that Protean Hulk will be much like Kokusho, the Evening Star when it was unbanned: powerful but not broken in the current Commander landscape."
-Sheldon
Nope link dosent seem to be working, and no other websites seem to have a banlist change. :/ can you redo the link please?
April 24, 2017 4:17 p.m.
Don't worry; I added all the text to the OP if the link isn't working. :)
April 24, 2017 4:18 p.m.
thanks for adding text. I can't see using Protean Hulk in any of my builds, but i'm sure i know a couple people in my play group who will try and abuse him. As far as leovold getting banned, it's probably a good thing. I was salivating at the idea of using him as a general, but it would have been a very mean deck. haha. and this ban effectively saves me money.
April 24, 2017 4:24 p.m.
maxon: No problem. The Hulk's going into my Mono-Green collection.
April 24, 2017 4:26 p.m.
Wait so leovold got banned for locking people out but iona is okay? Not to say I have any issues with the ban I just think that logic is kinda flawed when iona can shit out anyone playing a one color commander deck.
April 24, 2017 4:27 p.m.
Randomdeath says... #9
Ions can shit on one color but there are lots of colorless removal against her levold got the axe cause he stopped players from drawing cards period and in doing so negated any chance of getting the removal needed to get back in the game.
April 24, 2017 4:36 p.m.
DrukenReaps says... #10
dan8080 leovold does his lock turn 5 or sooner. iona is much harder to hard cast and only stops a single color, yes you can drop her out turn one if you get the right hand but still much easier to do leovold lock. there are also more easily available answers for iona even in mono-color decks but then i'm of the opinion that there shouldnt be a ban list. there should be a list that states "these commanders are cruel or broken and we advise against playing them" but no ban list.
April 24, 2017 4:40 p.m.
That was my logic too. Iona can also get discarded, countered, and add in the multiplayer nature of EDH, and you see why Iona hasn't been touched. If she were in the command zone, that's a different story. It'll be a game of Archenemy.
April 24, 2017 4:41 p.m.
For entertainment only, What creatures could be brought together in his stead to achieve his effect? I'm thinking Notion Thief, and Rayne, Academy Chancellor could be involved? Better options? Rest of the crew?
April 24, 2017 4:58 p.m.
griffstick says... #14
I had a feeling both of this was gonna happen. I've been holding on to my protean hulk for a while and never thought for a sec Leovold would last
April 24, 2017 5:01 p.m.
landofMordor says... #16
I'm not familiar with the site that posted the ban. Is the ban an official ruling? Not that I don't believe the OP (I'm hoping it's true). I just don't know how official the ban is, and I saw no news of this on the Wizards site. (Please take this as mere ignorance, not impertinence!)
April 24, 2017 6:07 p.m.
Lol, I am still keeping my leovold deck allot of ppl in my play group are happy on him being banned but the funny part is there forgetting we don't follow the banned list.
April 24, 2017 6:19 p.m.
landofMordor: MTGCommander is as official as it gets for EDH ban changes. Wizards does not run the format.
April 24, 2017 6:19 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #19
I agree with both of the changes (Leovold is definitely adding to the current skew that the metagame as a whole has towards multicolored decks, especially ones with blue, green, and/or black), but there are still so so many things on the banlist that would have less of an impact being unbanned than Hulk.
The legal Tooth and Nail is better for winning on the spot than the banned Coalition Victory.
The banned Sway of the Stars and Worldfire create less of a boring game than the legal Stasis and Winter Orb.
The legal Shaman of Forgotten Ways is a repeatable version of the banned Biorhythm.
Am I saying those cards should be banned? No, I'm saying those cards should be unbanned, and if the committee is worried about them becoming too pervasive, I would replace them with the best tutors of the format, such as Demonic Tutor, Worldly Tutor, Sylvan Tutor, Mystical Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and Enlightened Tutor.
April 24, 2017 6:59 p.m.
RazortoothMtg says... #21
HAHAHA! DIE LEOVOLD DIE!
Really I'm just happy because my friend just bought his Teferi's Puzzle Box
. Now I can play magic again.
Also might throw in hulk into my riku deck just as a tutor and mana cheat. Too bad he can't fetch an Avenger of Zendikar XD.
April 24, 2017 7:21 p.m.
GreenFuzzyNinja says... #22
The hulk is going into elvish decks to wreck the game. Play almost your entire deck by sacking hulk
April 24, 2017 8:05 p.m.
Well, the Hulk is pretty much sold out everywhere now, or bought out and reposted at 300%+ price hike. Guess I'm skipping this one..
April 24, 2017 8:19 p.m.
Lightpulsar9 says... #24
Got my Hulk for $3.5 immediately after seeing the unban announcement. FeelsGoodMan
April 24, 2017 8:24 p.m.
landofMordor says... #25
Phaetion thanks for clarifying. I'd just never seen that site before.
MagicalHacker I am with you 100%. I'm tired of being told that Sultai is the most competitive commander colors in a casual format, so this is a nice chance to let smaller decks shine. And I agree that tutors make games a lot less interesting, especially when you hold it up to the funpredictablility of Worldfire. Of course, I'd suppose the reason Worldfire was banned is because it was abused as a not fun group-slug card or a Goblin win condition, so there's always two sides to the story.
April 24, 2017 8:30 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #26
MindAblaze, no, and I have proof. I think Hermit Druid should be on the watchlist. Lol
landofMordor, I've heard many players tell anyone entering the format to always play a multicolored commander, or 3-colored decks are the best for beginners, or that 5-colored decks are the most fun, etc., and if you look at edhrec.com's list of top commander of this week, this month, and all time, you won't find even 1 mono-colored/colorless commander there. It's so sad how mono-colored isn't really given too much of power in comparison to multicolored.
Yeah, I think Worldfire and Sway of the Stars are probably banned because theyre seen as too random. They basically make a random player win, so I can see why theyre banned, but I'd rather have one of those resolve instead of a Winter Orb or Stasis.
April 24, 2017 8:43 p.m.
PookandPie says... #27
Leovold being banned is something I've expected since his printing because it was way too easy to build undesirable board states in more casual games (oddly, Leo was nowhere near as bad in more competitive play, where he was essentially a slower, but more control-oriented, Doomsday/Ad Nauseam deck in comparison to Zur).
Protean Hulk being unbanned was... unexpected. I've had one in my binder forever (probably since I played Standard during Time Spiral!) but now I'm shoving it straight into Ghave for some delicious Karmic Guide/Saffi/Reveillark loops.
April 24, 2017 10:18 p.m.
I have this feeling that the Hulk will get banned again within a year.
April 24, 2017 10:39 p.m.
I'd love to see Worldfire unbanned, says I, a person who is considering building Jhoira.
April 24, 2017 11:45 p.m.
Jagd_Tallgeese says... #30
The day I actually finish my Leovold deck is the day he gets axed.......
April 25, 2017 1:34 a.m.
Winterblast says... #31
Well, good I haven't bought one yet...but still, fuck that decision. Undesired game states are exactly what makes most fun in eternal formats imo and they take away yet another method to achieve that. I just hope they don't ban anything important for stax, lands, mana artifacts and essential lock pieces.
Hulk is another one of those silly combo pieces that everyone can pull off out of nowhere, just like tooth and nail...it can happen in every mediocre midrange aggro deck without thought and skill. I'd rather have more control available than dumbass win options.
Best would be to make everything available in commander except for P9, because the singleton rule balances everything quite well anyway. If you want to play competetive you find enough ways to kill or create "undesired game states" anyway, unless you cut so much from the format that you reach a low power level like modern or standard.
April 25, 2017 3:54 a.m.
Wow, it has been a while since I've been on this site. This announcement got me more excited to play EDH than anything in a long time. Protean Hulk is gonna be stupid in my Ghave deck. Really need to rebuild that thing though, it's pretty outdated.
April 25, 2017 5:10 a.m.
landofMordor says... #33
MagicalHacker I've heard similar things. Ironically, I would never start a new player out with 3 or more colors, especially if they're brewing their own decks. The land base is more frustrating, and often the strategies are more complicated, which stinks if you're still trying to learn the rules. Gisela, Blade of Goldnight was my first commander, and she was linear enough that I could actually start to understand the intricacies of EDH at my own pace. And there are plenty of mono-colored commanders that offer the same learning experience without suffering any loss of effectiveness. Patron of the Moon, Toshiro Umezawa, Yisan, the Wanderer Bard, Rakka Mar, and so forth. And anybody who argues that mono color generals are less powerful has clearly never tried to take on Talrand, Sky Summoner 1 v 1.
I'm with you all the way. "Fun" for me is defined as a game where both decks did their best, to the extent that it could've gone either way. Heavy Stax and board locks defeat that goal for me. I'd rather lose 100 games straight if everybody at the table is participating and having a good time and is taking the game of MTG lightly as it was intended to be taken.
April 25, 2017 7:44 a.m.
Winterblast says... #34
MagicalHacker I wouldn't suggest a multicolour deck for a new player either, especially because it's really expensive to play with all the needed fetchlands and duals. Although I have a 5 colour deck and a 4 colour stax, my other decks are all mono coloured , , and with just a little red splash. Mono colour decks sometimes can't protect themselves against one specific threat (like red against enchantments) but they are so much straightforward and robust that it doesn't really matter. And you can play all the global nonbasic land hate if you want to give multicolour decks a really bad time. Blood Moon for example...
April 25, 2017 9:05 a.m.
Using mono-color decks allow players to explore card options they would've never considered otherwise. For example, I've grown fond of Overblaze and some other cards because I delved deep enough into the color to find them. Now I want to jam Overblaze where I can.
Just using an EDH deck with one color is like getting a Welcome Deck: Mono-colored, shows off the color's strengths and weaknesses, and brings new players into the game/format (respectively).
...and here I was, looking for a good excuse to play mono-color, since all my duals are gobbled up.
April 25, 2017 9:46 a.m.
I enjoyed playing leovold, but apparently control gives people the feel bads... who would have thought? I don't see what the difference is in me getting a draw lock down on my opponent and them scooping or getting infinite haste tokens with kiki-jiki and swinging out. Farewell, Leovold, we hardly knew ye.
April 25, 2017 10:06 a.m.
The banning is particularly rough for competitive players. Leovold was actually an interesting general there.
April 25, 2017 11:17 a.m.
PistonGolem says... #38
I'm more of a casual player, but I am glad because Leovold seemed oppressive. T1 Shock and elvish mystic, T2 swamp and Leovold, T3 windfall, and everybody's hand locked.
April 25, 2017 12:29 p.m.
Winterblast says... #39
TheDevicer I would say competetive commander wouldn't need that banlist at all and for casual players the banlist still allows absolutely unbeatable locks and combos. Somehow that comitee's bannings seem as if they just piss off certain types of players once in a while without actually helping neither competetive nor casual players.
April 25, 2017 1:49 p.m.
Winterblast says... #40
And PistonGolem, you could have an opening with mishras workshop, trinisphere and turn 2 another land and lodestone golem...and if leovold doesn't have a force of will on turn 0 you bring forth one lock piece after the other and will probably not see the opponent's commander hit the board. It's not too hard to prevent the card draw lock from even happening, you just need to have a strong control deck yourself. I guess they banned him because it is too cheap and easy to pull off for casual players...as you said it only takes one dual, a mana dork and no opponent being able to disrupt you until turn 3 (which is realistic in casual but not against competetive decks) and it's game over.
April 25, 2017 2 p.m.
@Winterblast You're right that competitive players don't need that ban list, but it's the only one we have...
April 25, 2017 3 p.m.
Competitive EDH players are typically at odds with the RC because the RC tries to cater to 95+% of their playerbase. In other words, casual players. There have been a couple efforts to come up with our own banned list, but there's really no point. There aren't enough of us for it to catch on, and any kind of tournament - which is what would catch the eye of the more competitive players - would go by the official banned list, not something a couple dozen redditers came up with in an afternoon. So, for now, we go by the official list. It's weird because it doesn't actually have that much of an impact on us. Many of the cards that are banned wouldn't cause issues for us if reintroduced, whereas there are a few absurdly unfair cards that are unbanned.
April 25, 2017 4:41 p.m.
Snapdisastermage says... #43
Well, I'd say I feel bad. But that's what you get for trying to play the fun police in commander
April 25, 2017 6:32 p.m.
On one hand I appreciate leovold being banned... But protean hulk being unbanned... PLS just undo that change sheldon. Hulk is just too good
April 25, 2017 7:02 p.m.
Unbanning the hulk is a huge surprise (perfect card for karador combo). Leovold is a strong commander but only punishes people who do not play enough removal. He draws a card but you do not get the wheel. I see that in my playgroup a lot. People rather ban problematic cards rather than improving their decks (almost no removal)... I am sorry for the people who bought leo for that crazy price
April 26, 2017 3:35 a.m.
As someone with a $2000 Leovold deck, I am sad to see him go to say the least, but it was pretty well deserved. As much fun as wheeling away to doomsday was, I never did feel good about locking people out with puzzle box :/
Sway of the Stars and Worldfire are banned because of Jhoira I believe. Suspend either with an eldrazi titan, or really anything behind it, and it's gg
April 26, 2017 4:19 a.m.
To be fair, the 2K Leovold deck's filled with staples and money hat won't go anywhere.
April 26, 2017 9:12 a.m.
To every honourable Leovold player out there, you have my sympathy. It is true that fun is interpreted differently amongst playgroups and if your playgroup is fine with the kind of oppression Leovold would bring at a table, then you were probably facing off against Hermit Druids and Doomsdays yourself, decks very well capable of going off turn 3 through disruption.
I think only a sadist would be bringing Leo at a table where the rest of the people cannot cope. Same goes for most of the tier-1 commanders that are extremely fine tuned, like Zur or Tazri. I say this because a game is not fun unless everyone is involved and multiplayer EDH revolves strongly around this tenet. If you disagree, you should be playing duels as things are different there (winning matters more). So to people who were violating this, this banning is on you!
If I would be the dominant player to such an extent where I was playing solitaire with 3 spectators, I wouldn't be having fun since I didn't sign up for that. Same applies for the people on the receiving end: if I were to be just watching a player spread his deck out while I could do nothing, I wouldn't be having fun since I signed up to play -not spectate- a game. Playgroups around the world should evolve based on their player base. Talk with each other and see what's fine and what's not, adjust power levels accordingly and warn people truthfully about those levels. If someone still wants to join a pod with Leo, Zur and Tazri with his Ishi-Ishi, Akki Crackshot deck, fine! What's important is to establish this agreement between ladies and gentlemen beforehand.
On a final note, I agree with those who favor the "banning" of the banned list. EDH is the format where you get to play with the cards you want! We shouldn't be taking away from it. I do understand there is a need to have a semblance of balance in tournaments, but this can be achieved by a meticulously designed point system that incentivizes healthy gameplay. One such example would be a variant where people can vote for decks they liked or disliked and allocate points accordingly, in addition to the points you'd get from winning.
April 26, 2017 9:27 a.m.
Panas: I have a slight, but niche disagreement about Tazri. Food Chain Tazri, sure, but Ally Tribal Tazri? (i.e. my build)
April 26, 2017 9:42 a.m.
Well some cards are banned bc they fundamentally disagree with the format (Painter's Servant) whereas some like the power 9 and time vault are banned because otherwise anyone who could not afford them would have no chance in edh. In all honesty I think that some cards on the ban list should be banned no matter what... but the rest of them are up to the group to decide whether they constitute a ban
maxon says... #2
link didn't work for me. but i'm on a chromebook, so lots of stuff doesn't work right for me.
April 24, 2017 4:08 p.m.