Fixing White in EDH
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Sept. 22, 2020, 7:01 p.m. by mccabej140
People often complain about white being the worst colour in EDH. This is mostly due to an inability to effectively get card advantage (i.e. card draw).
Red used to be in the same boat but the impulse draw mechanic along with other innovations has really helped red while also not breaking the colour pie.
I have a proposed mechanic that will similarly help white. This mechanic is based off the +1 from Ugin, the Ineffable. The player exiles the top card off their library and creates a token creature. When the token leaves the field, the player adds it to their hand. Maybe a 2/2 is too good so let's downgrade the token to a 1/1 spirit to be on the safe side.
So basing a hypothetical card off of the existing card Light Up the Stage a potential card would be: 2 and a white for a sorcery with "Exile the top 2 cards of your library face down and look at them. Create two 1/1 spirit tokens. When a token created by this card leaves the battlefield add one of those exiled cards to your hand.
This mechanic meshes with white mechanically and thematically. It works mechanically because white is already known for making small creatures and this mechanic synergizes nicely with board wipes which white is also known for.
The mechanic also fits with white thematically as the process of drawing the card is basically rewarding the player with the card for their patience. It's basically just a slower but safer version of red's impulse draw.
Most importantly, the mechanic just "feels white"! What do you think?
I think that white doesn't need fixing, because its not broken. I've said this once and I'll say this again - the "white is the worst colour" non-issue is exclusively a casual commander problem. Outside trying to build an Avacyn angel tribal deck, and complaining there's no card draw there, white has some pretty decent card advantage. And in commander there are more than enough artifacts to fill the void.
And on top of that, white has some of the most powerful stax and proactive hate cards. Equipping white with a bunch of card advantage effects (especially something like this that would play right into death and taxes decks) would break the baalnce and make white too strong.
TL;DR: White doesn't need fixing because it's not broken.
September 22, 2020 7:30 p.m.
channelfireball12345 says... #5
enpc I'm curious to know what "pretty decent card advantage" there is in white that you're referring to.
September 22, 2020 8 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #6
channelfireball12345 I mean Land Tax, Weathered Wayfarer, Mentor of the Meek, Mangara, the Diplomat, Verge Rangers, Bygone Bishop...
September 22, 2020 8:08 p.m.
mccabej140 says... #7
enpc What card advantage for white are you referring to? Sure white has some ways to draw cards like Sram, Senior Artificer but even that's pretty limited. And white shouldn't have to resort to using artifacts when every other colour has plenty of card advantage options in their own colours.
And I've been playing EDH for about 2 years now and I've yet to see a stax deck. I suspect because stax isn't very fun to play for most people. In fact, the only mono white deck I've ever seen is Sram. Therefore, white needs ways to combat other decks that's also fun to play.
September 22, 2020 8:10 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #8
mccabej140 Do you play online? Stax is every 1-2 games, and I love playing it and against it, most cEDH and EDH players do, at least on MTGO.
If you've never seen a Heliod, or an Avacyn, I'm not sure how into EDH you have been xD, you've only seen Sram? Why are you even talking about Mono-White.
September 22, 2020 8:17 p.m.
mccabej140: White has pure card draw in the forms of Mentor of the Meek, Wall of Omens, Bygone Bishop, Alms Collector, Dawn of Hope, Mangara, the Diplomat, Thraben Inspector, Scout's Warning and To Arms! (from a quick gatherer search).
In addition, it has artifact and enchantment based draw/tutor in the form of Enlightened Tutor, Sram, Senior Edificer, Puresteel Paladin, Stoneforge Mystic, Stonehewer Giant, Open the Armory, Steelshaper's Gift, Kor Spiritdancer and Mesa Enchantress to name a few.
That seems like plenty of options for card draw/tutors in white. And while seom of these are limitied to artifacts/equipment, you can't just write these off becuase your specific deck isn't heavy in that area. It's like saying that green's tutoring is crap becuase you can't tutor instants despite thefact that green has some of the best creature tutors.
"Fun" is also not an argument here. Just becuase you haven't played with or against stax decks and just becuase you don't find them fun does not mean that that you can just write the entire acrhitype off. There are plenty of people who really enjoy playing those decks and now you're effectively telling those people how to play Magic.
Some players don't like counterspells - does that mean that we shouldn't play them? Now blue has a big void until late game. Blue needs more ramp! it has to rely on artifacts, that's not fair to blue!
But the above logic is flawed. Counterspells exist and giving blue ramp would make it more powerful. Just like giving white a crapload of unrestriced draw. Stax exists and you can't just pretend it doesn't becuase you don't like playing it/against it. White exists on a balance between having draw and having stax and that balance is important.
channelfireball12345: see above.
I would ask the question to everyone here - if white has such bad card draw, then what's stopping you from splashing a second colour to fix the deficit? Why is there such a push to build mono-white decks?
September 22, 2020 9:01 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #10
I think a few of those cards would be nice. Better make 'em 1/2s tho.
Personally, white is good at over time weird card advantage. What I'd like to see is more Castle Ardenvale but scaled for EDH power levels. It's a card advantage ENGINE on a land. It can singlehandedly win a game if you run out of gas by making sure your worst possible turn is an instant speed 1/1, which is so much better than nothing.
Maybe an enchantment that has repeatable for a 2/2 would scale a lot better in EDH. or just Luminarch Ascension ;)
September 22, 2020 9:04 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #11
enpc once you start saying that White's good card draw cards are ones that only draw one... that's when you know it's bad. Try going into gatherer and seeing how many White effects draw more than one card (no fair counting colorless cards). There's like, two. Admit it: White could use a bit of help. SynergyBuild do people think that Verge Rangers is one of White's best draw effects? Unreliable only-land draw that doesn't even get you a card in hand for Wheel decks? that... is slightly unfortunate
September 22, 2020 9:26 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #12
Omniscience_is_life Oh sorry I didn't mean best, just off the top of my head since it was from recent sets, I don't build mono-white much, apologies.
September 22, 2020 9:27 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life: I listed like 4 repeatable card draw effects, not even counting all the repeatable equipment ones. And I don't see how a card that does something and draws you a single card is still bad? Elvish Visionary only draws one card, must be bad...
I'm not trying to advocate that white has an amazing draw package. But what I am say is that white has a capable draw package. And when you balance that against the rest of white's strengths (graveyard recursion, removal, stax, pillow fort, lifegain, equipment, tokens) then white's card draw is in a healthy place.
But if people want to ignore what white does well and only complain about the fact that their deck is underperforming becuase they didn't attempt to leverage any of the other things that white does, then I have little sympathy. Or that they were determined to play mono-white rahter than just splashing blue or green or black for more card advantage if there was a concern about underperforming.
September 22, 2020 9:38 p.m.
mccabej140 says... #15
DeinoStinkus Fair enough. I didn't expect the topic to hit such a nerve haha.
September 22, 2020 9:44 p.m.
mccabej140: I have seen this topic come up a bunch and I will admit that it's a pet peeve of mine, so I generally come out guns balzing more than I should. But my big issue is that so much of what white is good at continually gets ignored but a huge focus is placed specifically on white's card draw (and to an extent ramp), however the argument undermines white's purpose in the colour pie.
White isn't about drawing cards, its about us all having the same number of cards. It's about slowing you down to its speed. That's why there is so much permanent removal in white and why it has so many "one spell per turn" effects. But for some reason people (and it's almost exclusively casual commander players) get tunnel visioned about the fact that white doesn't draw cards as well as the rest of the colours.
September 22, 2020 9:51 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #17
enpc And with newer colorless card draw becoming much better, modern playable Mazemind Tome, EDH specific Endless Atlas, and older Sensei's Divining Top/Scroll Rack always being powerful options!
Things that synergize with white's effects like counters with Mindless Automaton, lifegain with Well of Lost Dreams, and tokens or small dudes with Skullclamp, that or Sword of Fire and Ice for equipment strategies, Smuggler's Copter and Bonders' Enclave for other strategies.
And in white, after looking it up for Omniscience_is_life, here is my new, semi-educated package:
Land Tax, Mangara, the Diplomat, Alms Collector, Weathered Wayfarer, Mesa Enchantress, Kor Spiritdancer, Sram, Senior Edificer, Stonehewer Giant, Dawn of Hope, Puresteel Paladin, Mentor of the Meek, Bygone Bishop, Luminarch Ascension, Emeria, The Sky Ruin, Sun Titan, Sevinne's Reclamation, Ranger of Eos, and Castle Ardenvale
Not to mention tutors being Weathered Wayfarer/Ranger of Eos being tutors, alongside Steelshaper's Gift, Open the Armory, Recruiter of the Guard, Ranger-Captain of Eos, Academy Rector, Arena Rector, Call the Gatewatch, Idyllic Tutor, Enlightened Tutor, Heliod's Pilgrim, Quest for the Holy Relic, Three Dreams, Boonweaver Giant, Auratouched Mage, Djeru, With Eyes Open, Taj-Nar Swordsmith, Thalia's Lancers, Totem-Guide Hartebeest, Relic Seeker, Priest of the Wakening Sun, Forerunner of the Legion, Ignite the Beacon, Plea for Guidance, Kithkin Harbinger, etc.
Oh, and there is more, just look!
September 22, 2020 10:05 p.m.
mccabej140 says... #18
enpc No problem. Maybe I'll just clarify my point since I think I got a little sidetracked.
To me drawing cards is such an integral part of magic, seeing one colour clearly weaker than the other in this respect seems unfair to me. Maybe some will disagree with this sentiment.
September 22, 2020 10:12 p.m.
mccabej140: But that's the balance of the game. Each colour has its strengths and weaknesses, but that's what makes the colour pie a thing. Once you start trying to make it more fair, you actually start to undermine the requirement for the colour pie at all.
September 22, 2020 11:16 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #20
White doesn't need to be fixed people just need to realize it's a skill intensive color and the advantage comes from strategically timing when you cast things. Additionally, casting aside some of the social contract rhetoric really does wonders for white seeing as most of their best cards break the social contract.
September 22, 2020 11:23 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #21
Homogenizing the colors can only be bad in my opinion. Card advantage isn't just about drawing and card advantage is not the only form of incremental advantage there is. If drawing is an integral part of your MTG experience, play a color that draws.
One land and one draw a turn is the basic design of the game. Breaking this should not be something that is expected. It is a powerful effect for sure, but this can be balanced with other powerful effects. You don't have to make every color play the same.
September 22, 2020 11:26 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #22
Side note: This is the first time I have seen the "white doesn't need fixed" argument be the majority of the responses. Maybe we have convinced people, or maybe we few are just being more vocal this evening.
September 22, 2020 11:28 p.m.
mccabej140 says... #23
Gidgetimer In no way does idea homogenize the colours. The whole point is to give white another option to get card advantage that still feels uniquely white.
September 22, 2020 11:49 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #25
TriusMalarky: if Castle Ardenvale is "single handedly winning the game", then clearly neither persons deck is working as intended. i would also argue the card is not card advantage.
September 23, 2020 12:04 a.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #26
mccabej140: this actually does homogenize the colors when you start taking to its next logical step. you say "card draw is an integral part of mtg" (which i would say its really not because many top competitive decks get by without any card draw at all) but technically a person could make a similar statement about any aspect of magic. creatures, removal, ramp, you name it. green has significantly worse creature removal than any other color. should we give green more hard removal? do we give blue ramp as someone else mentioned above? once you start trying to remove the weaknesses of each color, they all become homogenized.
you're just gonna have to either accept that a mono color deck will have weaknesses, or add another color.
September 23, 2020 12:12 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #27
@DragonSliver9001 is correct, colors don't need every effect, and screwing over the color pie when white has plenty of white-specific card draw seems weird. They don't need a Harmonize, they want another Enchantress, or a new weenie Tutor, or tax-draw engine.
September 23, 2020 12:27 a.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #28
Ooh SynergyBuild I want a tax-draw engine soooo badly for white
September 23, 2020 12:35 a.m.
Colonel_Kink says... #29
ok ima weigh in here.
in terms of card draw, white is the worst. that cannot be denied.
second, white card draw is limited to catch up from behind mechanics.
therefore, white can never be ahead in card advantage, based on those mechanics.
how does mono white win? simple, either by killing opponents with a combo, with creatures or an alt win condition.
the same applies to all the other colours. combo relies on tutor and brute force card draw. creatures relies on cards to put on the board, alt win pretty much is combo.
all other colours can do this easily. and they can advance their gameplan faster than white can.
that means white will always be at a disadvantage.
September 23, 2020 2:01 a.m.
Colonel_Kink: That's why white has such an array of stax and proactive hate.
Step 1) play a bunch of hate and lock your opponent out of the game
Step 2) casually beat them to death while all they can do is watch
It's almost as if effects like vigilance are commonplace in white to break parity with things like Static Orb. It's also why white has such an access to strong weenie cards and until its banning, cheap anthems like Crusade. Who cares if you can only untap one land a turn of all your stuff only costs one or two mana.
September 23, 2020 2:27 a.m.
Colonel_Kink says... #31
i am speaking purely in card advantage here.
stax is viable, and relies mostly on artifacts for most locks.
so if you take away stax, please explain how white can ever gain an advantage, and if they do, how can they use their cards that mostly function from equalizer mechanics, to gain the advantage that other colours can do? prison and stax are monowhite's strongest strategies. they also limit you to prison and stax strategies.
September 23, 2020 3:02 a.m.
"stax is viable, and relies mostly on artifacts for most locks."
There are still a crap tonne of white stax cards. From Linvala, Keeper of Silence to Aven Mindcensor and Spirit of the Labyrinth, these are used to slow the game down to White's speed.
If you then look at where white wants to play:
-
slower than red: waiting unitl red runs out of steam
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faster than green: white is designed to shut down green's ramp so that it can't play big things
-
faster than blue but slower than red: but tries to shut out blue's control elements which is often why you see a lot of token generation on land in white
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on pace with black: black and white are just stright up designed to be in direct opposition, unlike the other three colours
And as a general rule, white focuses less on winning hte hand game and more on winning the boardstate game. That's why there are so many white midrange cards that are just pure value. It's part ofthe reason why Brightling is placed where it is on mana cost.
I think the big issue here and where there is going to be the biggest disconnect between my opinion and a bunch of others' opinions is because of EDH. White and to a lesser extent red both suffer when the goalposts are moved from a two player, 20 life format to a 4 player, 40 life format. I'm not going to deny that. As someone who has a mono-white Balan, Wandering Knight deck, I do know the struggles that mono-white can feel.
But the issue is that you can't just look at white in the context of one format. Any cards that you're creating here which would undoubtedly make white better in EDH would tip the scales too hard in white's favour in all of the other formats that had the cards available. Or the cards would be crap and unplayable to to the point where they wouldn't help the EDH decks anyway. And look, I've heard some thoughts about cards that scale with the number of opponents which would be the best fix if one were needed (as to have the least impact on the other formats) But I just don't think that they're required.
In addition to this, I don't think that the points I have made undermine any of my previous points. Yes, mono-white in EDH has some defecits due to the format change, however a lot of the stax effects hurt all opponents equally, so they still work pretty well.
But it's important for EDH-only (and especially casual EDH-only) players to keep all of this in mind - any new cards you add will affect other formats. So while EDH is definitely a popular format, it should not dictate how white works.
September 23, 2020 3:49 a.m. Edited.
EleshNornsFs says... #33
I don't really see how white stax is supposed to out-pace the ramping shenanigans that green has these days. Look at standard right now, for example.
September 23, 2020 7:27 a.m.
mccabej140 says... #34
enpc Would you be opposed to printing cards like the one in the OP for white in a EDH-only product so it wouldn't have an impact on standard?
September 23, 2020 9:27 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #35
mccabej140 I think it's an effect that is like manifest, so every color should access it, you can't start making new manifest cards and forget to make a newer version of Whisperwood Elemental!
Basically, it seems like a 5c mechanic, nothing seems especially white about it to me xD, but I mean I am unopposed to it, just put it in a conspiracy thing.
Personally I think Monarch is what they should bring back for white.
Oh, and yeah enpc is right, as we have seen from decks like D&T from legacy, the best stax has proven incredible results against the most busted combos, and white is by far the best stax color in the game.
September 23, 2020 9:50 a.m. Edited.
TriusMalarky says... #36
DragonSliver9001 I must have mistyped, I meant to add
in the right situations.
For instance, if you have a white weenie deck, and have a board of ~6 power, your opponent is already low. Less than ten. Now, if they've stabilized, you can't really attack. And you got slightly flooded. Well, now you're able to use Castle Ardenvale every turn to keep the game going and prevent it from getting out of reach. Are the tokens going to do the killing? They might help a bit, but mostly no. But are they making sure your board never gets too small even if you topdeck badly? Oh yes.
It's great in or against control. If the opponent doesn't have evasion or trample on their creatures, Castle makes a chump blocker each turn and can literally act as a repeatable Time Warp. Against control, your whole goal is to always have a creature that can get through to deal damage. Castle helps there, too, even if you topdeck badly. Or if you do topdeck well, sometimes it's correct to use Castle.
I've won entire matches off of Ardenvale's back. And not against bad decks either -- it helped leaps and bounds against a competitive Hardened Scales deck in Pioneer when the format was still new. (I didn't win that match, but it was close)
EleshNornsFs enpc personally, the problem is Wizards STOPPED printing the high quality stax and lock and punishment effects. We've got some in Modern... but Pioneer and Standard lose out hard. I mean, it's trivial to build a white weenie deck that wins on turn 4/5 while most of it's threats can eviscerate entire archetype's strategies. Spirit of the Labyrinth? Yep, the hurts Uro and Control in general, and anything with blue. And it's a 2-mana 3/1 that can pile on the hurt. Leonin Arbiter, Ethersworn Canonist, Dryad Militant, and that's not even going into blue or green splashes for Meddling Mage, Unsettled Mariner, Gaddock Teeg and more. But Standard and Pioneer only get the newer, weirder ones that hit planeswalkers specifically, or hate on Escape/commanders, or one or two others that are okayish but not super relevant to the metas.
September 23, 2020 10:08 a.m.
What I have learned from playing EDH myself in terms of this conversation is that mono-White is appallingly bad at just about most things IF:
You are new to the game.
I think someone mentioned that most good white cards break the social contract;
I think that 99.999% of decent white cards poop on the social contract.
I really hate the social contract, seriously, and this just reinstates that. An entire color became "unviable" simply because people decided that you're not allowed to play it.
That's salt right there.
I think what the original poster is trying to get at is that white should have more "socially acceptable cards", because currently, there are almost none.
Imagine playing Luminarch Ascension and NOT getting your face beaten in. It just doesn't happen unless you have some sort of back-up plan, and how is a casual player supposed to know that a back-up plan is required?
I honestly think that white should have some sort of way to be played in EDH without instantly making you Archenemy and having people threaten to stop playing with you.
Also, salt is real. I once literally played Braids, Conjurer Adept, a group hug deck, and then dropped Karn, the Great Creator and someone who was playing an Artifact deck scooped and then basically told me that I should learn to stop hating humanity and fix my toxic ways.
Bruh.
September 23, 2020 10:28 a.m.
Btw, that same guy, I once played against with my Oloro Board-Wipe Tribal deck (probably had over 30 board wipes in it) and he said, "So, when are you going to stop j**king off and start playing real Magic?"
Fun times.
September 23, 2020 10:35 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #39
I had a Child of Alara deck that used reanimation to repeatedly boardwipe before the death trigger change. As it turns out, boardwiping at least once a turn breaks the social contract or something.
September 23, 2020 11:17 a.m.
Nightblad3 says... #40
Imo white does not need to be fixed in edh. It has its strengths and weaknesses just like every other color, and one of its weaknesses is lack of straight up card draw without the support of artifacts or other colors. This is why the color pie exists. If the social contract is what's bothering people, ignoring it and playing the game how you want to play it is an option, even if that means locking other people out of the game with things like Decree of Silence + Solemnity or other things that mean you don't wind up getting your face beaten in because you want to play specific cards or colors
September 23, 2020 12:17 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #41
Lol. If someone thinks that board wiping or casting a spell that makes his deck not work "isn't Magic" then you shouldn't play with them, because they're toxic.
Granted, my early MtG days were pretty crazy. I did win with a weird lifegain stompy deck, but I shifted to a combo deck that was only beatable by the guy who used 8rack or the people who added Nevermore to their sideboard. It wasn't what you'd call 'real Magic' if you're a person who still thinks Colossal Dreadmaw is an actualy good card rather than a meme-y good card.
September 23, 2020 12:20 p.m.
Colonel_Kink says... #42
oh, i thought this was just for edh. white is pretty good in most other formats. but in edh it is so restricted it aint funny.
September 23, 2020 12:21 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #44
DragonSliver9001 it's not that they're 5-mana 1/1s... it's that it's a repeatable effect that doesn't cost you cards. There's a reason it's 5 mana, and that's because if it were 2 or even just 1 it would be crazy.
And maybe you only read that part where I said 'Castle can win games' and ignored the rest of my comments. It can't win the game on its own. Spending every turn on a 1/1 is pretty bad.
However, when used correctly it can act as the following:
-
Repeatable Time Warp
-
A mana sink when you're flooded
-
Another couple tokens so you can finish off the game
etc. It can't win the game without help... but it can take really bad situations and make them usable. In situations were you'd have been guaranteed to lose, it makes it possible to come back and win the game if you draw one or two good cards and know what you're doing.
I'll admit, if you're an absolute noob you'll never be able to see why it's good. But Castle and other repeatable token making effects are insanely good and one of White's best forms of card advantage. Yes, they're skill intensive. But they've won me many a game in Modern, Standard and Pioneer.
September 23, 2020 1:15 p.m.
DragonSliver9001 says... #45
TriusMalarky: you literally said "single-handedly". i'm not a noob, but Castle Ardenvale is bad. it just is. being repeatable does not make a 5 mana 1/1 good. if thats the best you can do with your mana, you've already lost. no offense dude, but it did not win you games in modern. using a card in a game you end up winning is not the same as using the card "to" win the game. you won those games due to your other cards, if at all.
September 23, 2020 1:37 p.m.
TriusMalarky says... #46
DragonSliver9001 we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I most definitely have won many games because of it.
It's not a win con -- it's an engine. Much closer to a bad JTMS with no ultimate than Baneslayer.
September 23, 2020 1:45 p.m.
Any repeatable creature production whose only cost is mana is decent enough to drop into a deck if it does not have a disadvantage or serious tempo loss. Entering play tapped might not be considered tier 1 cEDH but it's certainly better than putting a plains into play after turn 4.
White has a lot of advantages but it can be and is slow against the new fast combo mtg environment. There are commander decks that plan on winning in the first 3 turns with a 100 card count deck.
I love white, great global control color, great fort color, great death & taxes or stax color. But it is at a disadvantage versus really fast combo decks nowadays.
September 23, 2020 7:24 p.m.
mccabej140: Skipping standard is ok, but any cards for commander immediately go into the legacy/vintage card pool. Not to mention all of the highlander formats. Just look what happened with True-Name Nemesis.
MagicMarc: Most of the really fast combo decks are more than one colour (like 4 colour :P) In terms of mono-coloured combo, it's primarily blue decks that cna combo quickly and even then they rely heavily on artifacts.
I know this wasn't your argument but I see a lot of "well without artifacts, white would be completely useless" despite the fact that other than green decks (so like only 80% of decks), any mono colour deck will heavily rely on artifacts. But for some reason they have to be excluded when talking about white specifically, but no other colour.
September 23, 2020 7:36 p.m.
I actually agree with there being nothing wrong with White.
I have never really understood where people get the "white is the worst color" from.
September 23, 2020 9:04 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #50
Whites strengths come from card quality. You're going to be hard pressed to find a removal spell better than Swords to Plowshares. Its also the best color for those people who like to keep the table honest. Though it's the least played color because most of the pay offs require strategic timing and sequencing. Back when I started playing modern hate bears was part of the metagame and when that deck got the soft locks going or was able to Ghost Quarter a tron land and vial in a Leonin Arbiter it was a sight to behold.
SynergyBuild says... #2
Incoming Skullclamp price hike.
September 22, 2020 7:07 p.m.