Fish, Kess, and Consultation [Competitive]

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Feb. 5, 2020, 6:11 p.m. by dingusdingo

With the recent addition of everybody's/nobody's favorite fish Thassa's Oracle, the competitive scene has been in a tizzy trying to figure out how to adapt and react. Most brewers have been fixated on adapting two lists to fish, specifically TnT Flash Hulk and Najeela Consultation Hulk, which are arguably tier 0 deck builds and are head and shoulders ahead of other tier 1 competitive decks because of the printing of Oracle. I think most people have missed a third well known commander who benefits massively from the printing.

Kess, Dissident Mage is very promising in this new meta, and I would like to present the argument that Kess is a tier 0 build in par with TnT Fish Hulk and Layered Najeela.

For those unaware of how the combo works, here we go.

DO NOTE: We must have no duplicates of basic lands in our mana base to use Tainted Pact. While competitive pact players may know this, it is worth restating for the purposes of education and discussion in the thread.

If we are holding Oracle + Pact in hand, we don't need Kess to reuse. We can simply Oracle, then in response to ETB use the pact.

This combo has gained a lot of resiliency over previous Laboratory Maniac or Jace, Wielder of Mysteries lines.

  • Thassa's Oracle is cheaper to cast by .
  • We do not need to run a draw spell with Oracle in order to win, while we do with Labman. This most likely saves us another mana, and it definitely saves us being required to hold another card to cantrip to win.
  • The combo is safer to resolve if we face interaction. We resolve Oracle first, the trigger goes on the stack. A trigger is much harder to counter than a spell. Once the trigger is stacked, anything that happens to Oracle we don't really care about, since we can win with 0 devotion assuming 0 cards in library. Previously, a Laboratory Maniac could be removed in response to whatever draw would cause you to win, meaning you would lose instead.
  • Fish Consultation allows you to attempt another win if stopped. Lets say we are on Labman + Pact. If our Tainted Pact resolves, but our labman is countered, we are most likely going to lose. While using Oracle + Pact, if our Pact is countered, we still have our library and can attempt another win. Similarly, because we resolve the Oracle first to get the ETB trigger stacked, we aren't in danger of Oracle getting countered and then us using Pact and being left with no library.
  • If you have Kess in play, you can execute the entire combo for 4 mana. If you already have both pieces, you can execute the entire combo for 3 mana and ignore graveyard hate.

So how is this any different than Fish Hulk? Simple. Kess, Dissident Mage can turn a single tutor into a winning line. The ability to use Demonic Consultation or Tainted Pact allows us to assemble and execute the entire combo from a single tutor, as the component that exiles for us also tutors the second card needed for the combo. This means that Kess + Forbidden Tutor is a winning line, similar to how Najeela has a few different one card combos with the commander for winning. Before the Oracle printing, a Kess deck would also have to stock up on cheap "draw a card" spells to supplement the Consultation strategy. Now that need is gone, and the overall strategy can be executed much faster due to the lower mana cost requirements and also card requirements. This means that you have more ability to simply race other decks if that is the best gameplan. The value nature of Kess allows you to go longer in grindier games or match ups. Most decks are pigeonholed into all-in combo or grindier control, but the speed and resilience of the combo paired with being able to reuse our GY really gives Kess the best of both worlds.

I would also argue that new printings have added resilience and more consistency to the build as well. Spellseeker is another way to find the 1 card wincon. Dark Petition is certainly more fringe but could very well see play, especially in lists that skew Ad Nauseam for Bonus Round. Scheming Symmetry is another new topdeck tutor, and the symmetry can be broken on it by cantripping, then immediately starting the winning line. The deck will continue to benefit from any new usable tutors, removal, or card draw that is printed, and these new prints won't invalidate lines or cause grief when making changes for them.

The final piece of the puzzle is the large amount of flex slots in a Kess deck. If you want an additional combo, you can slot it pretty easy and there are good choices. If you want more hate pieces because you see Fish Hulk every pod, you can grab things like Cursed Totem very easily. Lots of green dorks or creature heavy boards you can get Pyroclasm and friends. Kess is blue, and already slots a good amount of counterspells and interaction. On top of protecting the combo, you can also choose to play a more midrange game and stop win attempts early, and grind value before comboing out later. Alternatively, you can just jam the combo if you have the tutors and mana to make it work. While Flash is easier to cast, Flash Hulk does require two pieces in hand to get the combo rolling, making it easier to see coming and harder to assemble.

Of course, Fish has other applications. Hermit Druid spiked in price for a reason, as did Sacred Guide. A card like Hermit Druid also requires haste enablers to make it go, which lowers your overall card quality and puts the pilot into awkward binds of either jamming the Druid and passing a rotation, or holding Druid in hand and trying to assemble Greaves + Druid or Banditland + Druid. Sacred Guide similarly hurts deckbuilding, mostly by requiring that a color in the identity be completely ignored for the sake of the combo. They are also basically worthless outside of the combo. Tainted Pact is an enabler and a tutor at instant speed, as is Demonic Consultation. You can always use them to fetch Pact of Negation or Force of Will in a pinch, should you have no other options to stop an opponent from winning. While it is unlikely you are going to win after exiling 0-99 cards in order to find whatever you name, you are being improved from "losing" to "most likely losing". The most important part of it is though that the forbidden tutors are actually tutoring while exiling, serving a dual purpose in the deck and improving slot efficiency. This even has a leg up over other Consultation builds, where the forbidden tutors are seen mostly as dead-draws for A + B for winning.

TL;DR Consultation Kess is also arguably a tier 0 build and was a big winner from the Fish printing.

GhostChieftain says... #2

Another note for Tainted Pact, if you are ballin on a budget, you can have a Snow-Covered Island along with your regular Island (same goes for other basic land types) because while they are both basic lands of the same basic land type they are a different name so it works with pact.

February 5, 2020 6:47 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #3

While I agree that consultation kess is a rad deck and has definitely benefitted from this whole ordeal, it suffers from 1 major thing that the fish hulk builds don't. Consultation kess only really wins on its own turn, and IMO that makes it at the very most a 0.5 tier. Very strong but not the big dog win from 0 board state on someone else's turn.

February 5, 2020 6:59 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #4

I would argue that power levels are very subjective to metas. There are multiple generals that are extremely powerful and can absolutely win at the same % as any Fish Hulk deck.

What's unfortunate is the meta has gone to such a place that's it's very common to run into 2-3 Flask Hulk Decks at a single pod. The lack of diversity has really driven the cEDH scene into a dark a place.

Due to the popularity of Hulk decks most cEDH decks that don't utilize GY mechanics have multiple tech plays just to deal with hulk.

All in all, Flash needs to be banned.

February 6, 2020 12:20 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #5

Insightful comments!

GhostChieftain I would agree that being able to win at instant speed is superior to being able to win at sorcery speed. Do you think the difference is large enough to make a noticeable power level difference between decks? The largest benefit of being able to win at instant speed is to win in response to someone else's win attempt, or when the blue players fully tap out on someone else's turn. While Kess can't win at instant speed, it can still capitalize on these opportunities with big flashy instant speed draw spells, either to shut a win attempt or set up your own. Specifically, I'm looking at Tainted Pact Demonic Consultation Ad Nauseam and Plunge into Darkness and Intuition, all of which allow blow-out plays against Flash Hulk nerds or allow you to set up for your own combo.

ToffMcSoft I would agree that power levels are rather subjective. If anything, draws and match ups are the biggest indicators of success after you've reached "competitive" level commanders and deck builds in my opinion. The popularity of TnT Flash Hulk and also Layered Najeela were rather annoying before the release of Thassa's Oracle, but the lists definitely gained in strength after its release. Calling them "Tier 0" builds is more thinking of them as decks you WILL play against, or decks you MUST consider when building and slotting your flex spots.

I also agree that the meta has stagnated, but honestly I think the largest problem was the unbanning of Protean Hulk. Flash into Academy Rector into Omniscience certainly saw play, and would see play again if Hulk were banned, but a very large amount of decks exist either to assemble the Flash Hulk or to pitch + reanimate + sac the Hulk. I think it is uninspiring deck building, and once you've seen one Hulk deck you have truly seen them all. Flash is a reasonable ban, but I would prefer the Protean Hulk ban, if not a ban on both cards. Arguably the forbidden tutors should be banned as well, seeing how well they work inside Labman builds and also Food Chain decks. Forbidden tutors are very good, but I also think they create uninspiring deck building situations, it is just so much more efficient to slot them over other combos. Both of these combos being so prevalent in the format has basically relegated Stax builds to tier 2 as well, since they don't really interact very well on the combos and are usually detrimental to the table being able to stop these combos.

February 6, 2020 8:48 p.m.

smilodex says... #6

I agree with you. Consultation Kess is just insane!

Using every tutor (ritual, wheel etc) twice is just absurd on itself.

Like mentioned before, the only "bad thing" is, that you're winning most of the time with socery speed (or play JLK's Vedalken Orrery or the Leyline of Anticipation :D).

TnT & Kess (and maybe Najeela, too) are the Tier 0 commanders right now.

March 28, 2020 2:37 a.m.

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