July 8, 2019 12:52 p.m.
haha thats a great idea. gonna dig for my grindstone
July 8, 2019 1:14 p.m.
PepsiAddicted that combo is the reason it was banned in the first place.
July 8, 2019 1:15 p.m.
oh never knew that. and its obviously still too strong.
July 8, 2019 1:17 p.m.
The Sphinx's Tutelage version doesn't work sadly.
July 8, 2019 1:25 p.m. Edited.
I'm pretty sure they banned it for being a 1 card lock with Iona, Shield of Emeria .
That's why it's coming back as Iona is being banned.
July 8, 2019 1:32 p.m.
as for the grindstone version ... 3+3 mana overall no color restrictions, even turn one pretty easy with some pricey rocks. could do it multiple times.
but im looking for cool stuff. i prefer fun play over strong play in EDH. theres other formats to aim for turn1
July 8, 2019 1:48 p.m.
Well Painter’s servant makes the original Ugin board wipe better doesn’t it?
July 8, 2019 2:53 p.m.
@ griffstick Compost + Servant. Every card that hits opponent's graveyards draws cards. Interesting. Wheel/Thief style decks could now run yet another piece that enables drawing a massive amount of cards from each wheel effect used. Both pieces are 2 cmc and can be found from a transmuted Muddle the Mixture or Enlightened Tutor . Veil of Summer and Autumn's Veil would have increased relevance in such a strategy, ditto for Mausoleum Secrets and Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed . Seems like an idea worth investigating to some degree.
July 8, 2019 5:03 p.m.
To be honest, Paradox Engine is a good ban. The card had pretty single handedly defined the entire cEDH meta. The biggest problem I see with banning it is that they didn't ban anything else important for cEDH. Unfortunately the only decks really keeping reliable and consistently fast decks in check were the decks that freed up card slots for cheap interaction with card slot efficient Pengine based combos. DD decks are now significantly better in the meta, Flash Hulk decks are now significantly better in the meta, Gitrog Monster is much better, Yidris is much better, Food Chain decks are much better, etc. Other slower decks that would tend to rely on Pengine decks to share the load in terms of burden of interaction are now significantly weaker.
Ultimately this banning probably does more to stifle meta diversity than improve it, which is extremely unfortunate. If Food Chain , Doomsday , and Flash or Protean Hulk had also seen bans the meta would probably have opened up more, but that would leave Gitrog Monster as probably the default best deck in the format.
I guess it's back to the extremely unfun every game ends on turn 3 meta that existed before.
July 8, 2019 5:17 p.m.
Hell yes! very happy with the Paradox ban -- it encourages lazy deck-building and destructive play
July 8, 2019 6:37 p.m.
Painter's Hulk: Flash Hulk combo, grab Viscera Seer , a 1 cmc elf dork, and Body Snatcher . With Body Snatcher trigger on the stack sacrifice it, return Hulk to play, sacrifice Hulk. Grab Painter's Servant (name Blue) and Academy Rector , sacrifice Rector to grab Animate Dead and reanimate Hulk. Sacrifice Hulk to grab Birchlore Rangers , Pili-Pala , and Grand Architect . Use Pili-Pala to generate infinite blue mana, tap Birchlore and the other elf dork for a green, cast Thrasios. Draw whole deck and loop to win.
I don't know why you'd do this over just playing Shuffle Hulk, but I guess it's an option and it's definitely degenerate. Just hard to haste up Pili-Pala.
July 8, 2019 9:04 p.m. Edited.
I for one am excited for Painter's Servant in Animar lol.
July 8, 2019 9:31 p.m.
I would have banned Contamination & Infernal Darkness long before I would have banned Iona, Shield of Emeria . Contamination makes Blood Moon and Back to Basics look as trivial as Root Maze when optimized for lockdown. If it didn't affect basic lands I would be much more okay with it.
Protean Hulk or Grand Abolisher - either one of those I would have banned. If my best answer to a combo is Cabal Pit or Ghost-Lit Raider 's channel ability something has gone wrong. If better answers were printed to get around this combo *cough* Grand Abolisher *cough* then it wouldn't be as bad.
Lastly I would have banned Dakmor Salvage . The infinite combo with this card, a discard outlet, and The Gitrog Monster is like the love child between Modern KCI and Legacy Four Horsemen. The casuals in my playgroup don't even want to bother understanding the inter-complexities that go behind this combo because there is a lot to take in, especially when the Gitrog player uses their discard step as a discard outlet to win the game. (Yes, I understand Gitrog players can use their discard step as a repeatable method to cycle Dakmor Salvage .) The issue here is, if no one can or wants to fully understand all the rules and limits that go behind this strategy that means only the Gitrog player is responsible for checking to see if the Gitrog player is following the rules behind his combo or not. The point is unless I'm there this player gets away with winning games a judge would have tossed the book at him for, because he knows his opponents won't challenge him on the validity of his reasoning. (Even I'm not fully knowledgeable on it myself either; I just have a better general understanding.) Seeing it get played in my casual play group is just too painful to watch and no one wants to make a play-group ban or else said player is going to feel singled out which would create bad blood amongst players. Either way this one combo has been disbanding my play group and nobody really wants to play the game as much given the stigma of the combo. I have even given up building my deck to go up against theirs as it would require boarding in cards that would already set my own deck back like Rest in Peace , Cursed Totem , and Suppression Field .
Contamination and Flash-Hulk combo are a pain to deal with, but I feel like I can still somewhat interact with them with cards like Seal of Cleansing and Red Elemental Blast . It's just those strategies feel like they run against the spirit of the game and are just too harsh to deal with as it currently stands. The Gitrog-Dakmor Salvage combo however, is the only strategy I feel incredibly helpless against that is crushing my interest in playing this format. I don't think these cards will ever get banned however, because they're either too obscure for most casual players to use often enough and/or they demand a player to own a lot of monetarily expensive cards in order to use them consistently and fast. Contamination , Infernal Darkness , Grand Abolisher , and Dakmor Salvage are the cards I feel need to banned the most given their impact when utilized in decks that can use them optimally.
July 9, 2019 3:31 a.m.
@ StopShot I feel ya brah. Personally, I think any combo shenanigans that can win in EDH prior to turn 3 should be auto banned. No one wants to sit down to play a game only to have the player who's going first take his first turn, play Dark Ritual , play Doomsday , and win before any one else has even drawn a card for turn. That type of ridiculousness honestly has no business being part of the format and any type of combo piece that enables wins prior to turn 3 should just be cut for the sake of allowing an actual game of Magic to occur instead of a goldfish game only one person gets to participate in.
I don't think fast mana is a problem.
I don't think powerful cards are a problem.
I don't think efficient cards are a problem.
I think cards that enable one person to prevent other players from playing even a single turn are a problem. Paradox Engine doesn't quite fit that bill and it's card slot efficiency was legitimately one of the only things holding the offending decks in check. The ban probably even hurt fringe decks that relied on it more than it hurt the PS Sultai shells that sit in the top tier of the format, which is even more of a shame.
July 9, 2019 6:44 a.m.
@jaymc1130, Exactly I run a lower tier combo deck ( Alesha, Who Smiles at Death ) which runs only 3-cards combos that are way more unconventional than these other combos that play at a completely different level. Even with all the expensive tutors in my deck I don't typically win the game until turn 20 or so, because they're all pretty flimsy to disruption and it would be more ideal to generate some kind of long-term value first to fall back on if things go awry. These other decks play with an entirely different mind-set by cranking out 2-card combos that can be used much faster while everyone is still trying to develop their board state and they can be ridiculously hard to answer to the point you'd have run cards like Praetor's Grasp and Nevermore as your only source of direct interaction. I know some people who play those cards for fun, but when you're forced to run a card that reads "ban target card from the game." as your only reliable answer to an oppressive combo, that oppressive combo probably shouldn't be legal in the game to begin with.
That said I wouldn't mind if they did ban Mana Crypt and Sol Ring . They're both restricted in Vintage for good reason and they do contribute a lot to the aggressiveness of any combo deck. Most players find my combos reasonably tolerable, but if I have the right hand with a Sol Ring I almost feel inclined to mulligan, because it just doesn't feel very fair to everyone else. I've yet to go up against a deck that unfairly used Doomsday , but based on my previous experiences and the turn 1 scenario you described I can see many-many ways that can go very wrong for everyone else playing the game. It's part of why for a time I used to run Winds of Change in my deck as the perfect turn 1 solution to everything given it's a mandatory mulligan for anyone who appears to be a little too happy about their opening hand. Of course that does nothing if they go first, and players shouldn't have to rely on turn 0 Force of Will s to fix these problems either.
July 9, 2019 10:47 a.m.
Stupid. Sheldon can buy my paradox engine for the full $40.
July 9, 2019 10:48 a.m.
Jokes aside what is the best shell for the painter's servant upheaval combo?
July 9, 2019 10:04 p.m.
I feel like winning with Doomsday is skill intensive enough that if you pull it off through any interaction you deserve to win just based on how hard making the piles is and when you add protection piles in I get lost.
July 10, 2019 1:08 p.m.
Can someone tell me how other than making all cards one color would affect the game? I guess I am just not seeing how Painter's Servant makes Flash Hulk better? Does PS prevent your opponents from interacting? Am I missing something?
July 12, 2019 5:01 p.m.
@UpperDeckerTaco - I don't think they were talking about PS in flash hulk but rather what they'd prefer to see banned. PS with Grindstone or with commanders w/ Protection like Animar, Soul of Elements is where PS will be used.
July 12, 2019 5:38 p.m.
Making all cards one color has a variety of niche combos that do busted things:
- Painter's Servant + Iona, Shield of Emeria was a spell lock. One of the reasons it was banned in the first place.
- Painter's Servant + Grindstone is effectively, ": Target player loses the game," and can go in any deck.
- Painter's Servant + Hibernation is basically Upheaval , another card banned in EDH. Since this version is so cheap and an instant you can cast Hibernation in response to your own spell, and then win the game with whatever problem creature you have on an empty field. It's also as easy to tutor as Dramatic Scepter.
- Painter's Servant + Deathgrip = Off color repeatable counterspells (there's a green version of this enchantment I can't remember).
- Painter's Servant + Compost = Makes you draw anytime any card touches your opponent's yard.
- Painter's Servant + Animar = Protection from everything.
- Painter's Servant + Teysa, Orzhov Scion = Extra Darkest Hour for sac loops.
Anyway, none of those were the reason Flash Hulk has become more powerful. It's just that Paradox Engine decks were one of the few things in the cEDH meta that could compete with Flash Hulk, so now that it's banned Flash Hulk decks are basically uncontested.