EDH - Is it okay to break the color wheel to better balance colors?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 20, 2015, 9:46 p.m. by Arvail
Most veterans of EDH will agree that Red and White are weaker than the other three colors in the format. The simple fact is that the restrictions that the color wheel places on these colors often makes them unable to efficiently carry out things that most EDH decks would deem to be necessary to successfully exist in the format. If you're playing one of these two colors, you might have a difficult time answering non-creature permanents or drawing cards without relying on cards from other colors or ones that are colorless, for example.
From a design philosophy perspective, do you think it's okay for certain colors to be effectively limited from being able to partake in basic functions of the game in order to preserve the sanctity of the color wheel? I don't think that anyone would disagree that the color wheel is an incredibly important part of MtG design philosophy and a driving force behind the success and cohesive feel of the game. Still, it does seem like the current state of White and Red leaves something to be desired.
What do you think about White having greater access to draw if it were kept thematically white? Imagine something akin to Mentor of the Meek but far less restrictive. For that matter, what do you think about cards that already break the wheel to give colors effects they normally have no access to? Think of stuff like Beast Within.
For the purposes of this conversation, lets leave out the difficulty in printing useful cards for EDH that would break existing principles of the wheel.
MindAblaze says... #3
Yeah, I have to agree with Derp. The color wheel is fundamental to Magic. What would be the point of having different colours if they could all do the same thing.
I wouldn't be opposed to white having draw akin to Mentor of the Meek in some other fashion, but it would have to be limited to what white is supposed to be able to do.
I think the nature of the format you're discussing just limits the aggro colours. Green's saving grace is they have some tutoring, draw, ramp and fatties to be doing more than just turning sideways. I think you just have to make the best of what you've been given, and accept having to splash, or go with the colorless options to get what you want done done.
November 20, 2015 10:06 p.m.
Megalomania says... #4
I would have to disagree with White and Red being weaker than the other colors. I think it's more of three-colored decks being a lot more stable and flexible than two-colored ones. For example, UB decks are generally slower than other color combinations which is why some people splash G. It also lacks cards to effectively deal with artifacts/enchanments which makes W a good addition. The game is pretty balanced IMO. You just need to learn to address the general weaknesses of your deck or find a way to work around it.
November 20, 2015 10:21 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #5
I concur. The colour wheel is essential. Not to derail the discussion completely, but I feel that white has been made weaker since the RC banned tucking of commanders. I play online and as such I cannot set "house rules", so this affects me more than most. White has taken a severe beating by limiting its answers.
Red, however, is gaining better access to card advantage lately. The whole: exile the top card(s) of your library and being able to play it, is making some headway.
As for non-creature permanents, White has answers in spades. Red unfortunately cannot answer enchantments. Violating that for the sake of commander defeats the purpose of the format and the colour wheel. Though I would like to hear your thoughts on the matter as well.
November 20, 2015 10:21 p.m.
As a person who plays Mardu, Red, Black, White I can agree that it's easy fining black cards, but not white or red as much. Wizards does give certain cards draw benefits in red and white like Humble Defector, Aggressive Mining, Armistice, and Pursuit of Knowledge. Problem is most of the cards are just bad. They can be very restrictive or come with a big drawback or be a dead draw in a lot of cases.
Heck Green is opposite of the color wheel from blue and they have draw spells. White is adjacent to both green and blue and hardly has anything. Red needs new mechanics, especially for commander. When everyone's life total is 40, I end up hardly ever using red except as a bit of support. Red should play crazy powerful cards that rely on chance, and the chance portion should be bent likely in your favor and if you lose the gamble you still should get a little something out of it, so it's not a waste.
Heck use board states to increase your chances. Maybe the odds of you winning something are factored by life totals, number of certain permanents, lack of cards in hand, etc.
November 20, 2015 10:23 p.m.
If I was to propose a way for red to deal with enchantment cards, what do you think of this?
Mana Cost: (R)
Enchantment - Aura
Enchant target enchantment.
Enchantment is a red goblin creature in addition to its types with base power and toughness 1/1 and attacks each turn if able.
I think that's the most red way you can deal with enchantments.
November 20, 2015 10:30 p.m.
CanadianShinobi says... #8
StopShot red has almost zero interaction with enchantments. At all. It would break its identity.
November 20, 2015 10:32 p.m.
Red is incredibly powerful and has many card draw options (Wheel of Fortune, Reforge the Soul, Magus of the Wheel, Winds of Change), but you're going to have to hurt yourself to see the benefits a lot of the time. Cards like Manabarbs and Repercussion will deal a ton of damage very quickly and the damage doublers, while affecting you, will typically benefit you a lot more. It can also deal with creatures and enchantments in a roundabout way (making them artifacts to then asplode).
White has answers to everything but things on the stack (it has a couple counters but they're very restrictive) and can tutor for artifacts and enchantments, and it also has cheap boardwipes. White needs to play attrition a lot of the time, which is not bad necessarily, but limits the options for commanders.
November 20, 2015 10:33 p.m. Edited.
Wizards pretty much explicitly gave Red access to enchantment removal with Chaos Warp strictly for EDH (for the most part anyways). There's precedent for Wizards breaking the wheel in this manner. I don't think that introducing non-native effects to a color is inherently a bad thing. For example, imagine a card like this:
Card Name
Sorcery
The owner of target permanent shuffles it into his or her library, then you lose life equal to that permanent's converted mana cost.
This is clearly not a Black effect yet maintains black's flair for pinging itself in order to deal with stuff or gain something. Whether or not this would be healthy for the format is something I don't think warrants much discussion. Just pointing out that effects can be imported from color to color without loss of flavor or breaking the wheel entirely. I mean, Chaos Warp is a godsend for Red players.
November 20, 2015 10:40 p.m. Edited.
Cobthecobbler says... #11
Red actually has some pretty broken things available to it. For example, Mana Echoes is one of the most outrageous enchantments you can have out in a token deck. This card is the reason I feel Marath decks are 100x better than ghave decks. Red also has Wheel of Fortune and Furnace of Rath effects which absolutely win games on their own in the right decks. While burn, reds iconic strategy, does absolutely nothing in edh, there's plenty of reasons why you might want red in your deck.
As for white, it is one of the most powerful support colors to have in your deck. Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares are the most staple removal spells in the format. O-ring is catch all removal and many of whites best bombs including Iona, Shield of Emeria and Avacyn, Angel of Hope as well as Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite can quickly turn the game around in your favor and even cause some opponents to scoop at the sight of them.
Generally, mono color in EDH is not the best way to go. These are the weakest mono colors by far. But they are still great to have when you have access to, really great.
November 20, 2015 10:42 p.m.
I've heard people claim that red is the worst EDH color, but I've never felt that. Red has all sorts of awesome interactions and almost all of my decks include red.
As for breaking the color wheel, it would defeat the entire purpose of commander (the challenge of building a deck based solely around a single commander).
November 20, 2015 11:05 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #13
lol.
everyone here has said something akin to "I've heard people claim that red is the worst EDH color" but no one here agrees with it XD
thats awesome.
November 21, 2015 1:05 a.m.
MindAblaze says... #14
I actually do agree with it lol. It doesn't offer the utility that white brings with removal and tutors. It doesn't mean I don't appreciate what red has to offer, just that, for me, it offers the least.
November 21, 2015 2:05 a.m.
Ohthenoises says... #15
Red is terrible in EDH as a support color. It does nothing to shore up weaknesses in other colors since there is barely anything in red that other colors can't cover.
That being said, as the main focus of a deck red can be extraordinary powerful. Krenko is one of the stupidest combo commanders out there provided you can force him through counter magic ala Cavern of Souls/Red Elemental Blast/etc.
As far as more casual commanders in red Feldon makes an amazing reanimator deck utilizing things like Gamble/Wheel of Fortune/Magus of the Wheel to their fullest to dig for eldrazi and other nasty threats. (Man a Fanatic of Mogis makes me lol every time.)
Most of the time when you see people saying red is the worst it's meant as "red is the worst supporting color" since, as I said before, it brings very little to the table that other colors can't do aside from burn effects which are bad in commander typically.
November 21, 2015 2:13 a.m.
Red and White are probably the weakest generic colours if you're going for absolute top tier play. You may want a single Swords to Plowshares or something in your deck but that's about it. In terms of specifically ading red I don't even know.... I can't think why you'd want that. You're unlikely to pick them to hole up or fix a weakness your deck has. But on their own, if built correctly, theyre actually incredibly strong.
White has access to incredible tutors, and the fantastic Reveillark, Karmic Guide combo which can easily insta-win.
Red has all kinds of fantastic artifact recursion cards available. Incredible sweepers and direct damage cards as we all know. Blasphemous Act is totally viable in EDH. It has combo interrupts in the wheel cards like Wheel of Fortune and some really nice punishing cards like Manabarbs
November 21, 2015 5:41 a.m.
MagicalHacker says... #17
Really, all they need is card draw card to put them back with the other colors. Black has card draw, blue has card draw, green has card draw, so red should get more exile-draw (exile the top card and you can play it this turn) and white should get "draw a card if a opponent has more cards in hand than you." If we get enough of those, they will be good in commander too.
November 21, 2015 9:28 a.m.
VampireArmy says... #18
To be fair though, red and white have the most powerful resource denial respectively: mass land destruction and artifact destruction. I'd bw more inclined to just build in that direction instead of breaking the pie
November 21, 2015 10:51 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #19
Idk what youre talking about. Red has probably the most chaotic cards and that's how red in edh wins (mono red) is by using cards that just change the flow of the game. Example: Wheel of Fortune and Possibility Storm or even Blood Moon. It has Chaos Warp for permanent based removal. It also had Wrath effects in it as well, example: Blasphemous Act. It had different types of card draw. Example: Outpost Siege.
White: probably has the best removal in the format...period. Oblation, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Wrath of God, Austere Command, Terminus, Fated Retribution, Oblivion Ring, Disenchant, Return to Dust....
Each color has their own strengths, yes the best card draw is in blue, then black, then green, then probably red, then white. Now...you can fill your deck with artifacts that help you draw to smooth out your draws, such as Staff of Nin just for example. The colors are well balanced and do their own thing. If you're worried about drawing cards, play U/x/x/x/x (anything with blue.)
November 21, 2015 12:23 p.m.
just needs more things to do, period. Not just in EDH but in all of magic. Look at what different colors have available in terms of playstyle options:
:
Discard
Reanimate
Kill Stuff / Midrange
:
Prison
Combo
Counter/Control
:
Wienie
Fatties
Midrange
Aggro
Combo
:
Wienie
Lifegain
Midrange
:
Wienie
Burn
THATS IT!
Once WotC does the next big rules change (Maro has confirmed it during a round of IF/WHEN) I think that there will be more options as far as card design. Once this happens and then are prime candidates of being the colors chosen to take advantage of new space before any other colors get a crack at it. After those two will have a go (assuming they don't bring lands style decks into standard)
Note that used to have Land Destruction (It's present now but nto really playable) and randomness thrown into it's colorwheel. WotC doesn't want LD to be played as a main strategy and randomness is just bad. (For an illustration of this see Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded A.K.A. worst Planeswalker ever)
November 22, 2015 5:41 a.m.
But that's just not true.
Red (and white) get combat manipulation be that through changing how damage is done or choosing how blockers are declared. That kind of stuff.
Red gets lots of punishment cards, especially mana punishment such as Blood Moon etc which are highly playable and effective cards.
And red doesn't have bad sudden mana production along the lines of Dark Ritual (I mean, look at storm decks in modern etc). I dont know specific card names but there are loads that can accelerate your production.
November 22, 2015 5:47 a.m.
I run red in two of my EDH decks and zero burn. Red has alot to offer, especially in the fields of:-Mana ramp/ production (rituals, doublers)-Combo-Control-Boardwipes-Ray of command type effects (eg, insurrection)-Pump spells-Double strike (for the voltron players)
and etc.
November 22, 2015 9:39 a.m.
Oh yeh also Insurrection effects. That's another thing they do best.
November 22, 2015 10:26 a.m.
It seems like we're getting entirely off topic. Since the conversation is quickly becoming about what the weakest color is, let me propose something.
Suppose we set aside what the weakest color in the format is in reality. Heck, we could pretend the weakest color in EDH is Blue because it has very limited access to spot removal.
The question I attempted to raise was, from a game design perspective, do you think it's okay to bend the color wheel to rectify the situation? The snap judgment is that this would be a terrible idea. However, there exists staples in the format that do exactly this. What do we make of Pongify, Reality Shift, and the like? Are these examples of bad card design? I'm inclined to say no. Even so, they clearly break the color wheel even if it is in a way that's thematically appropriate for Blue.
November 22, 2015 10:52 a.m.
If we cannot decide which colours are the weakest then we cannot decide which colours need extra allowances in terms of function.
November 22, 2015 10:57 a.m.
Discussion on whether a color or colors in general warrant this treatment doesn't necessitate that we identify that/those color(s).
November 22, 2015 11:03 a.m.
Well it does somewhat because we need to talk about which allowances to make and depending on the colour in question that may not be an allowance at all. So, for example, deciding that direct damage should be available in all colours does nothing to answer imbalance in red - because it's something red can already do. So my perspective is that we need to highlight which colour we want to change and then we need to discuss a reasonable way to do that.
November 22, 2015 11:29 a.m.
MindAblaze says... #28
I think the discussion needs to be about if there are/is a weakest color to justify shoring some of them up by bending the color pie. The natural extension of that conversation is "which color is it," and "this color is strong because it does X."
November 22, 2015 1:39 p.m.
The color pie is fine and even for those who disagree, us discussing (or bickering) about how we would design it differently seems somewhat pointless seeing as none of us are in MTG R&D (or at least I'm assuming as much)
November 22, 2015 2:32 p.m.
MindAblaze says... #30
Armchair designers/developers are ok. I appreciate the exercise because it deepens my understanding of the game and the format.
November 22, 2015 3:24 p.m. Edited.
A conversation doesn't actually need to have an impact on the topic to hold inherent value. I'm sure you and I could have a conversation about the Paris terror attacks, never have it amount to action of some kind, and still feel like the conversation was worth having. Just talking about something you're passionate about can be a great intellectual or social experience.
November 22, 2015 3:31 p.m.
Here is what I do when in colors that can't seem to "deal with that." "That" being an enchantment, something with shroud, or whatever.
Know what I do when I lack the ability to remove the item in question?
Remove the player.
November 22, 2015 6:15 p.m.
MagicalHacker says... #33
As a format, what kind of cards have effects that don't scale well to 4-5 player game where everyone starts at 40 life and plays singleton decks? Small creatures, targetted burn, combat tricks, lifegain, and a couple others. What scales great? Card draw, board wipes, tutors, pillow fort, control, and a couple others.
We need red and white to have good multiplayer/singleton/40-life mechanics. That's what we need.
November 22, 2015 6:41 p.m.
"We need red and white to have good multiplayer/singleton/40-life mechanics. That's what we need."
Amen to that right.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #2
ummmm....
white has all those o-ring effects which are esencial to EDH along with red having Warstorm Surge effects and damge doubling, both of which ammount to amazing value in EDH.
sooo....
they're still pretty amazing.
and breaking the color pie would defeat the purpose of the colors and the commanders.
commanders purposely resrict your buildable area for a more interesting way of building. breaking these colors more than the tiny bit they are allowed would remove the reason for the restrictions.
November 20, 2015 9:53 p.m.