Dockside Extortionist Loops
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Feb. 26, 2020, 5:01 p.m. by dingusdingo
Good afternoon to all the lovely folks of TappedOut (except the guy who advocates playing Doomsday and passing). On today's thread, lets discuss Dockside Extortionist loops.
As some of you may be aware, the combo of Dockside Extortionist is used alongside Temur Sabertooth to generate infinite mana, usually in 4 or 5 color shells with a commander as an outlet for winning. The gist of the loop is to create 5 Treasure tokens from Dockside, then use 4 of the tokens to bounce and replay Dockside from the Sabertooth.
This combo has been covered in a few places before, but I keep seeing it! So lets dive into why I personally think this combo should be avoided.
1. Players can scoop
The single biggest reason not to run this combo for winning.
- 104.3a A player can concede the game at any time. A player who concedes leaves the game immediately. That player loses the game.
Conceding is an action that doesn't use the stack, and can immediately stop your combo from executing. Imagine a scenario in which you have 3 opponents, with 5 artifacts/enchantments split among them with a 2/2/1 split (so two opponents have 2 and one opponent has 1). With Sabertooth on the board, you play Dockside to start your loop. An opponent who is knowledgeable of the combo with 2 artifacts/enchantments decides to scoop. Now, instead of winning, your combo is going to be mana negative and no longer works.
But Dingus isn't that unsportsmanlike?
Ethics aside, scooping at will is an action other players can take. Relying on your opponents to act in good faith is a losing strategy. Also consider that there are quite a large number of spiteful players, a problem exacerbated by losing. I can think of more than one game I've seen someone revel in their role of playing Kingmaker (deciding who wins after they lose)
2. Dockside relies on opponent's board state
Relying on your opponent's having a certain board state to execute your combo makes it much more fragile. Even if you're holding both A + B of your combo, having to wait until your opponent's assemble a certain board state means you may end up losing with both pieces available for use.
Also: artifact/enchantment removal in response to the trigger is another vulnerability for this combo. Seeing 5 qualified permanents on the board and having one or two removed puts you under the threshold.
3. Treasure tokens require a tap and activation, and an ETB to be created
Much more minor than the other points, but still a reason. ETB tapped cards see play, especially Root Maze Blind Obedience and Manglehorn. There are a handful of other ones too, like Kismet which are more niche. There are also cards that stop artifact activations, namely Stony Silence and Null Rod but also Karn, the Great Creator. The effects that turn off ETB triggers, namely Hushbringer Hushwing Gryff and Torpor Orb all stop this combo as well.
Counterpoint: Both pieces have high enough independent quality to be worth running
Dockside Extortionist is treated for the most part like a red ritual. Temur Sabertooth has lots of application for resetting valuable ETB effects or saving creatures from removal. A large argument for running this combo is that many decks would want to run both of these cards anyways, and slot efficiency is saved by relying on it for a combo.
I acknowledge this, but wholeheartedly believe that Dockside is much weaker than people realize. Most importantly, the two biggest decks to consider in the EDH meta currently are skewed more towards creatures than artifacts in terms of mana ramp. While these decks do indeed pack artifacts and enchantments, they aren't as prevalent as creatures. Furthermore, the biggest combos in the format currently with Flash Hulk and Fish Consultation don't run artifacts or enchantments, and are cost effective enough where the pilot doesn't need to build a massive rock board state to execute the combo.
Discussion
Do you consider this to be a viable combo for winning? Despite my opinion, I'm certainly interested in gathering more information or perspectives on the combo.
I mean, its a good combo. Also
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The fact that anyone can conceed at any time is kind of not a good argument against because it essentially makes every combo not work. Also you just took a player out of the game?
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Its one of the few combos where it works out pretty well regardless of who it depends on. Its really almost impossible that all opponents dont have at least a couple together.
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Every combo has a weakness. Its still a lot nore reliable than a lot of combos out there.
Not every combo is going to FlashHulk and this is still a fairly good combo, not to mention since there are still some common artifact based decks out there like Urza decks. Also, if youre someone like me, who doesnt play cEDH every game and doesnt have a whole ton of cash, I might use the same deck for different power levels, without switching out cards.
Also, its a fun sounding combo.
February 26, 2020 9:44 p.m.
dingusdingo says... #4
GhostChieftain Thanks for the input, the exact kind of comment I was looking for. I'm envious you play in such a mature meta, as the "scoop to stop" is the reason I haven't investigated slotting this combo myself. Have a Korvold list? I'm certainly interested in taking a peek.
dbpunk The reason I talk about scooping with this combo is because a scoop can turn this combo into a nonbo depending on the timing. Compare to a classic combo Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and Village Bell-Ringer. Even if one player scoops as you're resolving the combo, you're still going to wipe the table. With the Dockside loop, the # of artifacts and enchantments may drop below the amount you need to perform the loop. While you did cause a player to concede, its a moot point if you are forced to pass and one of the other two players is able to win instead.
While I agree that Flash Hulk should not be the standard to gauge combos against, there are still a fairly large amount of combos that lead to guaranteed wins no matter the board position of your opponents or their ability to scoop at any time.
GhostChieftain says... #2
I find that it is an extremely reliable combo due to the prevalence of mana rocks in my meta and that my meta is very anti spite-pacting, kingmaking, and spite conceding. I also am skewed toward playing this combo because it is so fantastic with my current commander (korvold). I also get the small benefit that my fringe-ass build allows a win from only 4 treasures being made each time if I have dragon daddy out since I do frog loops in my version.
February 26, 2020 5:21 p.m.