DEBATE - Ethics of proxies in EDH
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Nov. 27, 2020, 6:20 p.m. by vishnarg
Hello all!
I'm having a bit of a debate with my playgroup and wanted to hear reddit's opinion. My friend runs a proxied copy of mana drain in a very competitive muldrotha list. He says he has no plans of ever removing the mana drain nor does he ever plan to buy a real one.
I said this is abusing the purpose of proxies and will make people not want to play with him. The purpose of proxies are (imo): playtesting, temporarily waiting for a card to drop in price, or temporarily waiting to save up enough to buy it. Thats pretty much it..
My friend says it doesn't matter, its just for gameplay, he has no need to waste money.
While I agree that in general proxies are great and have an important role in many edh playgroups, there are ways to abuse them, and in my opinion this is one of them.
To make matters worse, he is the only player in the group that uses mana drain.
Am I wrong for not wanting to play with him over this? I don't mind proxies when the deck feels fair or if you are just using it temporarily until you can get your hands on a copy, but this is not the case here. Thoughts?
I suppose. But is it wrong to say that proxies are to be used only to playtest, or be a placeholder until you can afford the card, not meant to be a permanent installation? He knows he likes mana drain and wants to run it, he can DEFINITELY afford it (he just spent literally 2 thousand dollars on a first edition Pikachu), its kind of scummy to use that forever when he could easily get his hands on one or just run counterspell. I even offered him the mana drain i just pulled for $40, which is how this all started. I feel like it's perfectly in my right to say this is an abuse of proxies though, no? Half of the game is collecting the cards, not just playing games. Where's the fun in just printing out a copy of the most powerful card in every new set and throwing it into your high power graveyard list?
November 27, 2020 7:44 p.m. Edited.
Gidgetimer says... #4
To play devil's advocate: where is the fun in buying cards? The fun of the game is in playing it, not buying it.
My play group only proxies cards if you own a copy and want it in multiple decks, or if it has already been bought and is in the mail.
November 27, 2020 7:59 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #5
No, There is no disparity if you're all able to proxy; choosing not to proxy is a personal choice. Additionally, you have the choice to not play with him if you don't like proxies that much. Though I strongly urge you to have a group discussion about power levels - assuming the majority of your group feels the same way.
It's for your play group to decide. The use of proxies varies person to person and play group to play group. All of the things you've listed are uses for proxies but there are definitely more if you were to ask me or some other players.
Just because they can afford it doesn't mean they want to spend money on it. Technically I could afford a set of unlimited duals but that'd make my fiance very upset so I refrain from buying things frivolously.
Also, in regards to the pikachu your friend got ripped off lol...a psa 10 1st edition is around 550 on Ebay currently. Logan Paul royally screwed up the pokemon market.
November 27, 2020 8 p.m.
To be honest, it mostly sounds like you're annoyed that he's playing a powerful card in a powerful deck without paying the "cost." I mostly agree with RNR_Gaming that if everyone is able to proxy but you choose not to, it's a level playing field, and there's no abuse of proxy; it's not like he's asking YOU not to proxy while he is.
IF this is a situation where you feel that you have some sub-optimal cards in your decks because you can't afford them, and you don't proxy those cards because you feel it's more fair or fun as a deckbuilding constraint, I think it's fine to ask him not to proxy the Mana Drain. You could also have a conversation where you can only playtest with a proxy for X games if you don't own the card before you have to buy it or take it out of the deck. Or you could just start using your own permanent proxies so that it doesn't feel one-sided. But I think it's unfair to say he's abusing proxies before you've set any rules for how to use proxies in the first place.
EDIT: Not to say I can't see why it'd be annoying, especially if he can afford it.
November 27, 2020 8:52 p.m. Edited.
Omniscience_is_life says... #7
Proxy a Force of Will and counter his Drain every time. That’ll show him
November 27, 2020 9 p.m.
ZendikariWol says... #8
Only a sith deals in absolutes, I know, but I'll make this one:
For every SINGLE rule in commander, leave it to the group to decide. All of them. Whenever a question starts with "are we allowing this?," the only thing that matters is that everyone in the group is on the same page.
November 27, 2020 9:09 p.m.
I agree with some things that have being said, primarily that this should be a group decision.
In my group, for instance, proxies are allowed if you own the card and don't want to switch it between decks. One exception to this rule is dual lands, which are allowed without constraint. We discussed that these cards being practicle, fun and never broken, but also impossible to buy for new players, we would level the playfield. I made a big order of proxies and distributed them to my friends.
Power level is also something to determine as a group. We have classified our decks as either battlecruiser, mid-power or high-power and before each game we pick one. MTG is only fun if all players are actually playing the same game, and format, budget and power level are all variables to be explicitly agreed upon to ensure everyone is having a good time.
November 27, 2020 10:01 p.m.
Proxies are good, and don't need to only be limited to play testing.
I generally agree with what RNR_Gaming said. Proxies are an equalizer
November 27, 2020 11:08 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #11
Honestly, I wish we could all just enjoy the game without the barrier to entry. One of the primary reasons I kept playing magic is because when I started I was a broke college student and I made friends who were kind enough to allow me to barrow decks and high end cards to allow me to compete on the same footing as everyone else. I've been paying it forward and it's one of the primary reasons proxies don't bother me.
November 27, 2020 11:23 p.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #12
Once upon a time, my friend group was falling apart. Magic brought us back together, but the three of us are all in the process of starting our families, so finances are tight. Proxies allowed us to keep things interesting and keep our excitement in the game, while keeping us connected. We all have entirely proxied decks. We play cEDH and use whatever cards we want. None of us have any intention of buying any of the cards for two reasons: we can't afford dual lands, good mana rocks, FoW or Mana Drain, and more importantly, what's the point? Why should I have to blow my hard earned money to play a game. I stare at a lot of genitals to get my paycheck and no piece of cardboard should be worth the hours of handling bodily fluids that it would take to even build an 8. With proxies, I get to actually connect with my friends in a fun way for about 5 dollars, instead of a few thousand.
November 28, 2020 1:20 a.m.
"I stare at lot of genitals to get my paycheck" - What is your occupation, a urologist, gynocologist?
Also, vishnarg, I agree with Eleshnornfs. $ should never be a barrier to entry. Proxies, while many times are used as potential placeholders, other times remain there because of $, laziness, etc....
November 28, 2020 2 a.m.
EleshNornsFs says... #14
Profet93 Ha! I wish I made as much as they do. I'm just a UA Tech for probation.
November 28, 2020 10:36 a.m.
Magic the gathering is so special because it brings people together. Proxies make the game more accessible to people who may not be able to pay for cards.
At the end of the day, Magic the gathering (Especially formats like cEDH, Legacy, Modern, and Vintage) wouldn't be nearly as popular if people had to buy their way in. If proxies help people play the game that we all love so dearly, then the act of using them is one that has my full support.
November 28, 2020 3:06 p.m.
FormOverFunction says... #16
I think that proxies are touchy because it’s a very irregular and inconsistent scale that they’re measured on. If I never managed to find an Iceberg for my The Briny Deep, but proxied it, nobody would really care because it isn’t a great deck and I’m not intent on winning. This case sounds like the competition level is much higher, and the intent is there to win. Someone who’s Super Serious(tm) about winning is usually that way about everything else...like having all the cards. Combining wanting to win everything with lazy/cheap card collecting can certainly rub folks the wrong way. Honestly, I’d just give him some good-natured ribbing any time it comes out. Eventually he’ll change...or you might.... ;p
November 28, 2020 5:46 p.m.
Within my playgroup it's pretty straight forward.
If you own a legitimate copy of the card or can prove you've ordered it and it's in the mail you can proxy it.
If you can't do either of those then you can't proxy unless the whole group agrees to being allowed.
November 28, 2020 6:26 p.m.
Like the other guy with the early family I am totally indifferent on proxies. I have enough free finance & am a dinosaur with leftover duals from when they were $4.00; however, the more laissez faire the game is for my playgroup the better. Lazy deck building? still indifferent there, with 2 kiddos (1 with special needs) & supporting my family full-time, one could consider my use of proxies as "lazy", but it is all about priority & do I want to be able to play this game of Wizard Poker in a convenient way? Proxies don't matter when you all gather for the socialization. & yes I would probably give someone some recurrent grief & mild smack-talk, I do that for time-wasting counterspells anyway & that is just more socialization inherent to the game.
November 28, 2020 7:31 p.m.
The best advice has been stated in here already by RNR_Gaming and others.
Talk to your group and agree on a specific rule about proxies. Live with the rule and find ways to deal with that Mana Drain, or don't, because in the long run it does not really matter.
Then agree on deck power levels like Heliogabale mentioned. It will make game nights much less confrontational.
The main thing is to have fun with your friends. The best way to do that is have clarity with each other about what is cool and what is not cool and then just have fun smashing face with each other.
November 29, 2020 1:47 a.m.
ShutUpMokuba says... #20
In my opinion proxies are fine when they are used for cards that a deck essentially needs to work properly, even the commander itself if it is particularly expensive. I personally don't like it when they are used for just good cards that are not essential for the synergy of the deck and there are budget (of course worse) version of them, but i've never made it an argument with people using them this way. For example, i can totally accept an Urza proxy but i sincerely like it less when they are used for a Vampiric Tutor or a Damnation that are not essential and also have budget version recplacement as tutors/boardwipes. It depends on power level. If i were playing at cEDH i would probably not accept them, but that's not my case.
In your case, i would kind of dislike others playing a proxy Mana Drain since there are a lot of counterspells. I would just explain it politely to my playgroup if i were you but i would not turn it into an argument.
Talk with your playgroup again. Sometimes it fails because people have their own ideas and won't change.
Also i'll just add my two cents about power levels, which are the whole point of wanting to play a proxy counterspell and such cards that you don't need for your deck to work in the first place. There are a lot of people, also on youtube like the command zone guys, that talk like you need a Teferi's Protection in order to make your deck work. Because if a very good card exists in the first place you need to get a copy to actually play well the game. This is totally false. There are plenty of unnecessary expensive cards that you can do without and not having your game experience ruined. If a guy pulls off a Mana Drain in response to one of my spells i don't think that i may be losing because he has one, because it does what a Counterspell does, better of course but it's not like i wouldn't be playing the same game if the next turn i counterspell one of his. So, then again, the point is: do i really need an expensive card to make my deck work, or it's just that i want the best cards?
Last thing: I don't get people that have fun to stomp other deck thanks to a couple of very good card they actually don't own. It's the kind of thing that you think are super fun but after a couple of times those victories becomes more and more shallow. So i would let them be, they'll get tired pretty soon. If not follow your own phylosophy, if to you is fine to play them do that as well, if not continue not playing them.
November 29, 2020 3:44 a.m.
It's already been talked about, but see what the rest of your playgroup thinks. If they agree that its in bad terms then collectively talk to this player. If he disagrees don't play with him.
November 29, 2020 6:32 a.m.
I can accept proxying for testing or for an expensive but not strictly necessary card, but in general I am opposed to permanently running a proxy. I have done it once in the 8-9 years I've been playing Commander. I don't really enjoy games at the kind of higher power level where needing to crack your proxy fetch for your proxy dual land so you can dump your proxy fast mana out while being protected by your proxy counterspells. I also dislike the mindset I feel gets pushed where you MUST run some expensive card like Mana Drain or Teferi's Protection, like the only way you can enjoy a game of Commander is IF you're running these cards and if you're NOT running these cards you're playing the game wrong.
But you can say this is all just, like, my opinion man. I rarely order cards for Commander unless they're A: cheap and B: for a specific theme because I prefer building lower-powered decks out of my own collection than ordering an optimized list.
November 29, 2020 10:49 a.m.
plakjekaas says... #23
My playgroup has a gauntlet of proxied cEDH decks because they're mostly modern players without any tournaments in the pandemic, and combining the social aspect of 4 player magic with the competitive aspect of why they were playing magic in the first place, makes them enjoy the game all the more.
If you'd need to actually buy the cards for Tymna/Thrasios, Tymna/Tana, Niv-Mizzet, Parun, Tymna/Kraum, Derevi Stacks and the Gitrog Monster, you'd be out of multiple thousands of dollars, and none of us feels like we have those amounts of dispensable income. Before we choose decks for the next game, the question: "casual or competitive?" sounds, and for competitive, usually most of the decks are proxied. Our casual decks have zero proxies in them, and those are the decks we'd play with randoms in a gamestore.
I think all should be fine within these clear-cut confinements in trusted company, powerful magic cards have an allure to certain players, and EDH is one of the few formats in which most of them are still allowed. If you'd forbid someone from your table to play his deck because he doesn't want to pay very real amounts of money for the cards he'd like to play, that's some serious gatekeeping for what's ultimately a way to have fun with friends.
I personally don't like playing non-real magic cards, I bought a played Gaea's Cradle this week because I hate looking at the Forest I've scribbled "Cradle Proxy" onto with a ballpoint. But I'd never deny a friend the fun of the most powerful cards when they're not willing to spend a week's pay over a pretty piece of cardboard.
Now the last part of the original post voices worry over the power level of the deck with proxies over the other decks at the table. This is a real concern for OP's own fun to be had on commander night, and that's the real issue you're actually going to need to talk about, as everyone here is suggesting.
Allowing proxies in your decks counteracts the "pay to win"-problem a lot of people have with Magic. Games become skewed as people won't have the same levels of budget or investment in the game, eventually I'll have become "that guy" with his €800 deck among €50 decks, instant arch enemy not because of archetype or strategy, or even actual threat assessment, but because the others are scared to lose to the first powerful card they see me play.
This lack of balance has already cost me a playgroup, and if it takes allowing proxies to prevent that from ever happening again, I'm game.
Your mileage may vary.
November 29, 2020 11:46 a.m.
True that. I have the disposable income & the current price-point turns my stomach when a deck = monthly mortgage... That is absurd. The game as it stands is at a threat of bursting the collector's price bubble, or allowable price to entry especially when you consider the quality of proxies that can just be viably printed instead. I have reached a point where there is a tolerable price I will pay for this game & maybe other players see it that way.
November 29, 2020 12:05 p.m.
zeniongames says... #25
Honestly, I don't mind proxies for EDH cards that are just unattainable for the average person, if it makes sense for the deck and it looks good. I could be a bit of a "proxy snob" but part of the fun of playing Magic is seeing good looking, recognizable cards hit the table, or ogling new cards you haven't seen before. So as long as a little effort was put in and it's not just "MOX JET" scribbled in Sharpie on a random Swamp, I'm cool with it.
A friend of mine has an all proxy Cube deck. No one is using any of the cards for competitive play, no one is putting any money down, its all in fun. At that point, who cares? It's a game, it's meant to be played. Tracking down and spending money on cards costing hundreds and hundreds of dollars are just silly for casual play.
November 30, 2020 8:12 a.m.
IoriYagamiFan37 says... #26
Proxies should be fine, they make the game more accessible for players who don't have the money to spend on what is, as the Magic Historian puts it, "fine luxury cardboard rectangles." People proxy for a wide variety of reasons. I proxy for aesthetics. I have a fully blinged out Chulane, Teller of Tales, complete with a judge foil Gaea's Cradle, and a Jenara, Asura of War edh deck, which is 97% proxied. I like my proxy extended art lands, mana rocks, etc. They just look great.
As for the guy playing Mana Drain in a competitive Muldrotha list, sounds like a power level issue. Is he playing this deck with equal power decks? or he is playing against lesser decks with it? If it's the former, there shouldn't be any issues. However if it's the latter, then your playgroup should have a discussion with him.
November 30, 2020 9:31 a.m.
TriusMalarky says... #27
I'm gonna restate some stuff in a slightly different way -- since he's proxying at that level, he's likely expecting that others will proxy at that level, which will make his Mana Drain reasonable.
However, if nobody else does, then his Mana Drain is no longer reasonable. Equal budget is a huge thing in EDH balance, which is why cEDH players mostly don't bat an eye when someone hauls out a piece of paper glued on top of a basic forest with the image of a Trop on it. (source: I asked r/CompetitiveEDH).
I'd say, either everyone at the table proxies a $100ish card or you make him cut it for some other counterspell. i.e. Counterspell if he doesn't already run it. It's a singular card he can pull out of his list for games with you and put in for games with other people.
November 30, 2020 10:21 a.m.
In my playgroup we give new players who join us a "welcome bundle" consisting of all the fancy lands (shock, fetch, old duals), all the fancy manarocks and some other select powercards as proxies. Then when someone gets utterly trashed we all brainstorm about what cards their decks need and the guy with the colour printer prints them.
I'm the one with most extensive collection and I love this tradition as it lets me feel good about playing my 5k USD deck, without feeling guilty about winning with my wallet :-)
November 30, 2020 10:23 a.m.
My position is that proxies in games between friends should be: 1. Allowed 2. Allowed within an established number 3. Not allowed It should be established by the playgroup beforehand. Sanctioned game don't allow proxies, as it is well known.
Your proposals of "until I save enough" or "until the price drops" are too vague, don't take into considerations unknown variables in the future that could affect the decision and ultimately prove themselves weak to abuse much more than an adamantine position like your friend's.
My questions for the OP: could you please elaborate on the reason to forbid proxy in any kind of game? You mentioned an "abuse"; with this term it is usually indicated a party that takes undue advantage of a position in which it has happend to be, to the disadvantage or harm of some other party. Could you please clarify the situation, material or psychological, in which you feel to be?
You provided a sort of explanation by saying that "half the game is collecting cards". Do you agree that Magic is a game that can be enjoyed on multiple levels (and that's probably the strongest cause of his success)? If you enjoy also the collecting side, don't you think it is incorrect to assume that what please you in Magic is the same for everyone? There are several different way to enjoy Magic; that's why the organized play (sanctioned or not) needs pre-deternined rules. If the playgroup decides for no proxies, that will be the rule to follow, but the moral connotation of right and wrong can not apply.
My proposition for my playgroup had been to allow full proxy decks; my playgorup decided for zero proxy and I'm playing EDH with them for ten years now with zero proxy and zero hard feelings.
November 30, 2020 10:34 a.m.
My playgroup actually had this discussion recently. Our meta ranges from casual to casually competitive with a few outliers either way. We have long since established that owning a card gives you "proxy rights" to that card, meaning that your sole mana crypt can be proxied in all your decks. Most of us are brewing on a budget, and we like optimizing decks, even if they're less competitive. It helps us build good, consistent decks without having to struggle for stuff like efficient ramp, draw, etc. We also allow gold bordered cards in lieu of the actual card. Recently we discussed allowing cards we don't actually own, however one of our more competitive group members immediately started brewing decks using prohibitively expensive cards. While these cards are powerful, we felt it would be a detriment to our meta for those who choose not to proxy, or the people who don't get to play a lot with us. This caused some salt as another member wanted to proxy a great cradle which I own and he doesn't. We pointed out that several of us use gold bordered cards and there is a gold bordered cradle and we would honor that as a black bordered card.
To surmise, our group feels that as long as you own an officially printed version of the card (including gold bordered), you are allowed to proxy the card. We also do recommend you have some sort of representation of a card other than just a piece of paper with the card name written on it.
November 30, 2020 11:07 a.m.
Not a problem! I hope he finds a better group of less uptight people to play with.
November 30, 2020 5:06 p.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #32
If I were you, I would just proxy an entire deck of the most busted/broken deck you can find on cedh deck database or edhrec, even the basic lands. And just play him with it. If he says anything about you not playing with "real" cards, then you have validity to your argument to use against him.
November 30, 2020 8:04 p.m.
Pixelprotagonist says... #33
I'm okay with playing against Proxies, as long as they're not abused (e.g. casual decks with all Fetches and Duals etc.). Especially in High Power /cEDH I encourage proxies, as I want to play against my opponents, not their wallets.
I think proxies aren't exclusively useful there, though. While I very much enjoy playing with real cards, I know people who don't care much for the cards, but like the game. They have a few commander decks that are 100% proxy and they wouldn't play if they had to own all the cards. I prefer playing vs their proxed decks over not playing them at all.
December 1, 2020 3:36 a.m.
Our playgroup is very playtesty and likes to proxy a bunch of stuff (I have the luxury of a massive cardpool and buying in to a lot of stuff before the EDH 2013 spike).
We do however enforce a "if you win with it 3+ times in one night, you HAVE to buy a real one.
By win with it, we choose the enabling card. Like if you won by combat because you cyclonic rifted everyone, thats the card that needs to be bought.
December 1, 2020 7:22 a.m.
ThePreBanMan says... #35
Proxies = cheating... IF you own the card, and it's a big-money card so you don't want to expose it in a deck... okay fine... but you better show me the original... I play in a small group. But if I were in a league or anything like that and someone showed up with proxies and didn't own the originals, either they leave, or I do... and I'm getting my money back if there was a buy in too...
NOWHERE in the MTG rules are proxies allowed. If you're going to break that rule, well then hell, I may just want to start using my sorceries like instants, or cast creatures when it's not my turn... I mean hell if you're breaking the rules, why can't I? Oh I see, only you get to decide what rules only you can break. Yea, you can check that shit at the door.
December 1, 2020 7:45 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #36
Nowhere in the rules does it say that you can sleeve your cards. Nor play on a playmat. Nor talk during a game. Nor breath during a game. What's that? YOU FUCKING BREATHED?? Get out of my swamp you cheater.
December 1, 2020 8:22 p.m.
Quite brave voicing your unpopular opinion, ThePreBanMan. But I think you are just not discussing the same subject as everyone else.
The concept of cheating is only relevant in relation to competitive play. Casual play is just a game a group of friends play for fun, and if someone were to actually cheat in that setting, I think you just need to find new friends.
December 1, 2020 8:44 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #38
Helio articulated quite nicely what I was too blinded with rage to say. Well done
In all seriousness ThePreBanMan, you are right in the context you are speaking about, but in casual play (especially EDH) you're often playing for nothing more than the fun of it, with people you've discussed parameters--such as proxying--with. But therein lies the issue, the one the OP brought up: what happens when I'm playing casually and don't agree with another member of my playgroup? How does one bring it up, and cultivate a healthy playing experience? If it isn't a judge telling me what I can or cannot do (in this hypothetic and yet so real setting)... how do I do it?
December 1, 2020 9:06 p.m.
hooliganrowdy says... #39
My play group allows proxies in legacy and commander if the card is more than 50 bucks and the proxy is legit (CE or world championship) to save the cards. In the case of power cards we all proxy chinese counterfeits. Hyper expensive stuff is for collecting not destroying.
December 1, 2020 9:09 p.m.
Jester_Gren says... #40
It can feel bad to invest thousands of dollars into something and then someone else gets it for free. I think there is some truth to getting the real thing feeling right. Lots of effort (play design, art, publishing) is put into the product that many people love.
That being said, in the interest of accessibility, people should be able to look for people out side of tournaments that let them enjoy the hobby, despite parts of it being exclusionist. Everyone's a critic in their own mind. There's not going to be a one-size fits all. Because of that, communication with the play group is important to all involved, because if someone is messing up your hobby you're not going to want to hang out with them while doing it.
There are a lot of good general rules, either ALLOW proxies or DON'T is the most straightforward. If you only want to include proxies UP TO A LIMIT, you need to have a longer discussion in the playgroup, and the rules you set could be based on a lot of things.
Just in case it helps, here are some of those options again: -allow a set number (3 proxies per deck, for example) -allow a certain dollar amount ($500 per deck) -allow all proxies over a certain threshold (all $100+ cards) -you can also use multiple rules or whatever rules your group agrees to!
Keep in mind, just because you agree to something does not make it law. Some adjustments might need to be made, and if you introduce new people to the group you may need to refigure
December 4, 2020 12:04 p.m.
Haha, cheating? That sounds like taking EDH too seriously. Usually there are about >10 other people at any Wizard Poker event I hold & it goes just fine with proxies.
RNR_Gaming says... #2
Play the player not the wallet. As long as everyone in the group can proxy there shouldn't even be any debate about proxies unless it's a sanctioned event. This sounds more like a power level discussion; if he gets off on stomping on casual level decks with an optimized one for shits and giggles perhaps have a sit down with him and have the whole group express how they feel about the blatant disparity in power levels. If he doesn't want to change perhaps have him find another group.
November 27, 2020 6:36 p.m.