Could Illuna Be cEDH?
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on July 8, 2020, 6:10 p.m. by Reznorboy
So, I did make an Illuna, Apex of Wishes deck (but I'm not going to post it here.) Regardless, do you think that Illuna could be cEDH viable? I think that at its best, it could be probably high-fringe-competitive. Now, before you tell me that the card is terrible, let me tell you how I think the deck would be competitive. Basically, my idea was to run no creatures, and only a single nonland permanent, specifically, Proteus Staff. (There are other possibilities, but I at least think that Proteus Staff would be most optimal). The idea is that you could use token generating sorceries, mutate on with Illuna, use Proteus Staff on it, reorder your deck exactly the way you want, (using the cards you haven't exiled), and assemble a game winning combo. (You would use cards like Kodama's Reach to get there faster, and counterspells to protect yourself).
Honestly, do you think it could be viable?
Really? I don't quite agree. I understand your point that no access to mana rocks or enchantments is incredibly bad. However, I do think that with aggressive mulligans, a high density of counterspells and green (and red) mana sorceries, you should consistently be able to assemble the combo turn 4-5, be able to win turn 5-6, and be able to throw some counterspells on others. Still not optimal, however, I think it at least deserves some recognition.
July 8, 2020 7:05 p.m.
SynergyBuild says... #4
Nah, GhostChieftain is right. Green rituals are incredibly rare, and decks get off the ground around turn 3 at the latest. The earliest this deck is getting anything serious is turn 5ish. How many red rituals do you even think there are?
Really, this deck is a real list. Food Chain it up! It's in Temur, perfect for Squee, the Immortal, Misthollow Griffin, and Food Chain, so you make infinite mana, cast the CFE creature, toss Illuna on it, get a random permanent, exile the pile, toss Illuna back in the Command Zone, toss the creature in exile, then rinse repeat for infinite Illuna triggers!
July 8, 2020 7:10 p.m.
However, you may be right. I'll just have to test it out and see how it goes.
July 8, 2020 7:12 p.m.
Omniscience_is_life says... #6
I don't think it would quite be CEDH, but it could still be pretty high on the power scale. I'd love to take a look at the decklist so far in case I'm missing something big... but I'd tend to agree with GhostChieftain that you will almost always be several turns behind a true CEDH deck, without rocks and consistent card-draw.
keep the idea though, by all means don't let this discourage you!
July 8, 2020 7:13 p.m.
Actually, Food Chain is not something I would have previously thought of for Illuna. Do you think what you suggested could be competitive? If not, is there some other variant you can think of that could be?
July 8, 2020 7:16 p.m.
Well, the deck I made is my current (terrible) paper list. It's on my profile. I was more wondering about others' opinions/ideas.
July 8, 2020 7:19 p.m.
GhostChieftain says... #9
Food chain is 100% the way to go with this. Your proteus staff plan is incredibly weak to any artifact removal.
July 8, 2020 7:26 p.m.
Hmm. I would if I could afford the Food Chain. ($80?) I guess I'll try to optimize my version for funsies. However, I love making - crazy creations, so maybe someday I'll be able to make something cEDH that fits my budget.
July 8, 2020 7:30 p.m.
Also, if I were to make a Food Chain deck, I wouldn't pick Illuna (probably Maelstrom Wanderer. Illuna is only the crazy/weird/interesting beast... elemental dinosaur I like when she's using her ability to its ... "fullest".
July 8, 2020 7:33 p.m.
I dont think that it can be high tier cEDH competative. Could be mid level with the food chain with cast from exile creatures. It would need lots of draw/cantrips, along with lots of disruption - due to lack of tutors for the food chain, and sone times would just wiff.
I do have a casual build I'm working on that has all of the Godzilla cards in the temur colors. The rest of the cards will be alternate artwork - or alteres for those that don't have alternate arts.
July 8, 2020 10:24 p.m.
king-saproling says... #14
I made a super budget list (~$35) for Illuna using this concept, except the one nonland permanent is Beastmaster Ascension so that you can eliminate an opponent as soon as Illuna drops. It works but it's nowhere near cEDH speed. Here's the list if you're interested: Budget Illuna.
I don't think Illuna is competitively viable considering the high mutate cost and setup needed. I think one would need to present a game winning threat by turn 4 at the latest to compete with typical cEDH decks, and/or control very heavily so that the opposing decks can't do the same. Illuna seems like fun though and can definitely be unexpectedly powerful in a more casual game.
July 8, 2020 11:26 p.m.
RNR_Gaming says... #15
There are other commanders that do what you're trying to do better and more consistently. This was a thing at one point but has fallen out of favor because it's not optimal. Everyone is on the farm and Oracle train right now. Not that I'd ever tell someone not to at least try but I really don't think it'll yield any favorable results.
July 8, 2020 11:33 p.m.
I thought it was a great idea at the time because Fblthp, the Lost decks win almost purely because of Proteus Staff and they're considered cEDH, and Illuna - searches Proteus Staff! I thought it was a great way to boost consistency and get more colors, but apparently the 4 extra mana for the mutate isn't really worth it. (I'm still testing my version though, and at the very least, I enjoy it.)
July 9, 2020 9:45 a.m.
I think it's also worth investigating my concept with not only lots of powerful counterspells, but powerful artifact/enchantment removal (especially the kind that hits more than one) so your lack of artifacts/enchantments is mitigated.
July 9, 2020 9:48 a.m.
fadelightningmm says... #19
When did Fblthp become cEDH playable? Last I looked he was fringe payable at best.
As for Illuna, I believe your combo is efficient, but not cEDH worthy. If it’s part of a game with slower fringe decks then I can can see it possibly working, but not on a consistent basis. cEDH is all about maximum efficiency taking a turn off is not advisable. With a 6 mana mutate cost illuna is very costly and is extremely open to removal. Either for your creature or the artifact. To combo off you would want backup counters for protection meaning that it will be later in the game. Chances are everyone else is representing lethal by the time you are attempting to mutate. All they have to do is kill your mutate target and it’s gg for your deck
July 9, 2020 10:38 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #20
You are also forced to play bad cards to be able to mutate on to something. Dragon fodder and krenko's command aren't good enough in cEDH.
All your opponents need to do is hold up removal on turns 5+ which they tend to do regardless and many players are threatening a win by that point or even earlier. As a combo it is in the high power range, not the competitive.
July 9, 2020 11:07 a.m.
Food Chain combo is weak,
yes it is infinite mana however, its exile not sac, so no death triggers, also the mana can only be used to hard cast creatures.
It can be used to pay additional costs like kicker and commander tax, But to date i have not seen a ruling on how it applies to alternative costs, but lets just say it will pay for mutate
sac squee 6 times to mutate once, sac mutate creature then sac squee twice to mutate again, then sac mutate once and squee 4 times, each time it gets worse.
It's do able but the reason im pointing this out is because it leaves a lot of priority shifting making it very easy to stop.
meanwhile, you are exiling all of your lands and your spells so when the time comes and they do stop you, most likely you wont have an answer nor will you be able to recover.
Now im not saying it cant be done, i just dont think its cedh worthy
instead i would use any number of the hundreds of infinite mana combos available to you in temur colors, then dump into a draw commander, so that you can just pick up your entire deck and do what ever you want.
July 11, 2020 10:33 a.m.
Back on Topic
As for what your trying to do
Illuna, Apex of Wishes, Proteus Staff , Animate Artifact, & Thassa's Oracle should get you there.
July 11, 2020 10:56 a.m.
Well, another concept I came up with for Illuna is to have Narset, Parter of Veils, a ton of wheels, and a couple board wipes. I'm not sure whether that would be better or worse. (Possibly a combination?)
July 11, 2020 11:12 a.m.
better or worse is relative
The beautiful thing about commander is there is no right or wrong and every card can be a combo.
This may appear as a lame cop out for advise but i promise you its truth
To build a commander deck you have to invest a lot of time, effort, & money in design and cards then spend hours and hours playing it.
despite what the net and store trolls might try to convince you, the only bad deck is the one you cant enjoy when its done.
so my advise is to run any commander and any combos you want, just play test it to make sure it works before you spend cash on cards.
July 11, 2020 11:43 a.m.
Thanks. I was starting to hate the deck due to its inconsistency, but with this change, it should become enjoyable again (I plan on playing both Narset and Proteus Staff to reduce the chance that Illuna just exiles my whole library (that happened in a game in a real game (it sucked))).
July 11, 2020 11:49 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #26
RambIe Food chain is actually extremely strong. It actually has 3 high tier cEDH decks already and a few fringe cEDH decks (including previous top tiers that were just outclassed by the main 3 or so). First Sliver, Korvold, and Cazur & Ukkima can all abuse the hell out of it and not care in the least about it not giving death triggers because they are just winning at that point regardless.
The way mutate reads, you cast it via the mutate cost so you are in fact able to cast via fc.
Reznorboy you might want to look into the Opus Theif archetype if you want to abuse narset. Here is a direct link to the suggested link, and here is a link to the cEDH Decklist Database if you want to look at all the Food Chain variants that are good enough for cEDH.
July 11, 2020 3:11 p.m. Edited.
GhostChieftain
you know what else was in all those decks ?
Mountain shall we debate its power level as well?
you are entitled to your opinion but mine wont change
korvold for example. food chain is a 2 card 6 mana combo that does not work independently and can only be used to draw into another combo. (you could have just fetched the win con instead)
Squandered Resources & World Shaper is a 2 card 6 mana combo that both cards work independently, as well as it evolves the board state by powering up korvold and providing mana to cast the cards your drawing, which if it so happens one of those cards is a gy recursion could evolve to infinite.
but hey they don't do that in teir'd decks so it cant be good
and no one uses 3 card combos in cedh even if 1 of the 3 is just a basic mechanic that should be spread though out the deck.
no one should ever question the power of the teired net decks!
July 12, 2020 9:19 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #28
The thing is though it is a relatively common thing is high tier cedh for a reason. I am certainly not saying don't try and find better things, im just saying that something that is tried and true and used in and against some of the best decks is decidedly not weak or it would not be done.
July 12, 2020 11:19 a.m.
SynergyBuild says... #29
@RambIe I have to agree with GhostChieftain here, when it comes down to it, the reason that Food Chain is powerful isn't because it is a two card, six mana combo, but because if you have a couple dorks it gives you 4 mana to spend on squee and go infinite. It is a busted card with or without the combo, and most of the wincons it can use are only wincons because you got infinite mana with it (Walking Ballista, or Impact Tremors style loops with the FC combo).
Now I do love you and the decks you build for a reason here, and think you bring a valuable argument to the table, and I get your point, there is no reason that Reznorboy has to build Food Chain. Competitive viability isn't the goal of most EDH players, and that's okay.
July 12, 2020 11:28 a.m. Edited.
I respect everyone's right to there opinions
and i fully understand how the combo is intended to work.
However,
mainstream net deck combos are the training wheels to playing competitively, and history has proven a well built off meta is the hardest obstacle to over come in any grand prix
the sad thing is how rare it is to find someone who can buld & pilot an off meta
so instead of preaching mainstream as uncontested absolute power
we should be pushing players to find there own way so that we can finaly unlock this game's true potential.
July 12, 2020 11:56 a.m.
@Reznorboy
I Apologize that my opinion and I have hijacked your thread
SynergyBuild & GhostChieftain are not wrong in there advise
we all just have different points of view.
GhostChieftain says... #2
Not really. Cheap Nonland permanents accruing value over turns is pretty important in cEDH. Giving up things like sol ring and mystic remora for a combo that you wont likely hit until t5-6 and wont use til t6-7 seems very bad.
July 8, 2020 6:55 p.m.