Commander Legends card is going to break cEDH.

Commander (EDH) forum

Posted on Oct. 29, 2020, 6:19 p.m. by StopShot

If you use your commander as an infinite combo piece, this card accelerates your gameplan by three turns. This card is going to enable more turn 1 and 2 wins and its instantly going to reach the power 9 status of commander cards. There are only three outcomes I see from this.

1.) Jeweled Lotus creates too much of an advantage in casual play environments that those who start with it are the most likely to win. Only this outcome would cause the rules committee to ban the card. While this would be the easiest solution to the problem I don't think the card will be strong enough to break casual by any means, especially with its bound to be expensive price tag making it scarce for budget playgroups.

2.) Jeweled Lotus only creates a toxic environment for cEDH, but creates more of an enjoyable environment for casual EDH. Given the rules committee doesn't want to ban cards based on cEDH it's likely the card won't be banned as cEDH implodes on itself over it.

3.) cEDH combo generals become so obnoxiously strong and common to face against that they end up creating not only a toxic cEDH experience, but also a toxic casual experience that results in a handful of EDH generals getting banned instead. Very unlikely, unless the cEDH community pushes for it to be done as it would be alternative solution to not banning the Jeweled Lotus and it would set a precedent for future commander cards printed to follow. If the Jeweled Lotus sticks around future commander cards will have to be made with it in mind making the Lotus a "power-check" kind of card.

4.) Of course there's the scenario that this card will have no impact and nothing comes of it, but I'm seriously doubting that will happen. This card is going to warp cEDH as we know it.

StopShot says... #2

I just made a thread discussing my thoughts on this. You can read what I have to say on it here.

October 29, 2020 6:24 p.m.

StopShot says... #3

Wrong thread, ignore my last post.

October 29, 2020 6:25 p.m.

ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING???

This is... a pretty unbelievably stupid card

October 29, 2020 6:41 p.m.

Don't see it up for preorder on CK. Who spoiled this card?

October 29, 2020 6:42 p.m.

As a casual commander player, I think you're underestimating the damage this card with do to casual commander as well. Keep in mind that the original Lotus is banned in commander - this one being limited to only commanders doesn't impact its usefulness by enough to make it fair.

You're right that price will be a barrier to access, but 1) this set is about to be opened on a massive scale, so accessibility will not, short term, be too much of a barrier, and 2) casual players still include a lot of people with large budgets who will be able to afford the card.

My thoughts are a bit more optimistic, that this will shortly be banned from EDH/cEDH, hopefully fairly soon. No one was asking for a new "fixed" BL.

October 29, 2020 6:45 p.m.

Just... stop breaking the rules of mana... it hurts...

October 29, 2020 6:48 p.m.

EleshNornsFs says... #8

PROSSH FOODCHAIN IS COMING BACK, BABY! YYEEEEAAAHHHHH BOIIIIIII! In all seriousness, this is definitely a problem, but I don't see how it creates a toxic environment in cEDH. As I understand it (take this with a grain of salt since I am brand new to it), cEDH players are as non-toxic as it gets. The general understanding is that everyone is playing as powerful, broken cards as they can. Nothing is off limits (except for the RC's banlist). It would be a definite auto-include that accelerates a combo absurdly fast but cEDH is no stranger to that. Mana Crypt and Sol Ring are nowhere near banworthy, and I don't see this card as being even twice as good as those. It's better, but I don't see it as format-breaking (for competitive anyway. Casual is screwed).

October 29, 2020 6:51 p.m.

abby315 says... #9

as an outsider who likes to watch in on the cEDH playstyle: are there any decks that rely on Commanders-as-value instead of Commanders-as-engine/combo that would be hated out of the format by this card? it seems that the meta has been evolving towards combo/engine Commanders for years now, so I think this will just speed up the format and perhaps shake up which engine/combo commanders are good.

however, it's absolutely a nuts piece of ramp. It might create a new Sol Ring problem, where the player who mulliganed effectively to the Lotus has a massive advantage. I mean, it's not even Mental Misstepable.

October 29, 2020 6:55 p.m.

StopShot says... #10

@EleshNornsFs Toxic might not be the right word. I think "broken" is more adequate. The Gitrog Monster is such a deck that I think will get a huge jump in power level as the cEDH combo variant has a ridiculous level of consistency for a 100-card deck and the main dilemma that deck needs to overcome is generating 5-mana to cast the commander as early as possible.

October 29, 2020 7:04 p.m.

Azdranax says... #11

Printed in the first ever draftable commander set...sure, why not. What’s next to be spoiled in the set, a split second instant named “I Win!”? Holy hell...

October 29, 2020 7:07 p.m.

Ohnoeszz says... #12

I purely checked in here to find the thread about this.

This is utterly foolish. It will be banned everywhere after creating a massive buzz for this set. I hear cash grab alot but I can't imagine a clearer example.

October 29, 2020 7:09 p.m.

hejtmane says... #13

They already use Lion's Eye Diamond to bust cedh with Underworld Breach and some other combos this just gives them another option in their deck instead of just Lion's eye

In fact the card with the biggest impact on cedh will be Opposition Agent

October 29, 2020 7:10 p.m. Edited.

hejtmane Well, how many times do you want to cast your commander?

October 29, 2020 7:12 p.m.

StopShot says... #15

@hejtmane I'd say Jeweled Lotus is much more splashable.

Lion's Eye Diamond makes a powerful combo piece when paired with Underworld Breach and Auriok Salvagers, but its discard hand clause keeps it relegated only for combo shenanigans that directly involve it.

Jeweled Lotus is the opposite. The mana it produces can only be used for commanders which keeps it from becoming a combo piece, however; in its place it becomes an extreme ramp card that can go into any deck whereas LED only works in decks built around it.

October 29, 2020 7:15 p.m.

RiotRunner789 says... #16

Many commanders today are part of a combo piece.

October 29, 2020 7:17 p.m.

hejtmane says... #17

never mine

October 29, 2020 7:17 p.m. Edited.

StopShot says... #18

@RiotRunner789, this is true, though I would say not all combo generals are equal in power level or combo-ability-ness. I think depending on how far this card pushes the power level will determine which combo general bend and which ones break.

October 29, 2020 7:21 p.m.

EleshNornsFs says... #19

Turn 1 Urza, Lord High Artificer. Oh boy. And RC has already said they aren't banning it.

October 29, 2020 8:02 p.m.

VampDemigod says... #20

I like that wizards tried to make a less broken lotus.

That said, almost all versions of lotus are broken, and this is too powerful.

Also this feels like a cashgrab, which I also don’t like.

I just wanted to say that while I don’t like this card’s existence, I do appreciate that WotC was trying to make a powered-down lotus.

October 29, 2020 8:53 p.m.

enpc says... #21

While I think the card is very strong, I'm reluctant to make claims that it's going to be the death of cEDH or anyhting like that. We have seen MANY powerful cards come through commander which were all "the death of the format" and yet here we still are.

I think if anything, this card will help encourage poeple (especially on the casual end of the specturm) to run more removal, or at least I can hope. The only thing better than windmill slamming this will be to immediately remove or bounce a commander than was cheated into play and watch the player struggle to recast their commander for like 4-5 more turns.

October 29, 2020 9:03 p.m.

shadow63 says... #22

Seems fun with Muldrotha. This card seems absurd in the right situations but theres also going be decks that don't want it. The only issues will be in cedh and they already have ways to drop their commanders early

October 29, 2020 9:51 p.m.

VampDemigod says... #23

Lotus trivia time! Who can name the red creature with a lotus-like effect?

October 29, 2020 10:25 p.m.

VampDemigod says... #24

Hint: it’s EDH identity is Gruul, and it’s more balanced than lotus.

October 29, 2020 10:26 p.m.

MagicMarc says... #25

Turn 1 Atraxa, Praetors' Voice, Breya, Etherium Shaper, or Omnath, Locus of Creation sounds exciting.

It still needs to be in your opening hand to really seem kind of broken. After like turn 3 or so it doesnt seem that it would matter a whole lot.

October 29, 2020 10:54 p.m.

MagicMarc says... #26

@VampDemigod: Wild Cantor is the first one comes to mind for me. A Lotus Petal with legs.

October 29, 2020 10:56 p.m.

MagicMarc says... #27

@VampDemigod: Guess #2: It's not three mana of any color but Orcish Lumberjack is another good one.

October 29, 2020 11:12 p.m.

Massacar says... #28

October 29, 2020 11:13 p.m.

Massacar says... #29

Forgot the Gruul requirement, oops

October 29, 2020 11:14 p.m.

VampDemigod says... #30

MagicMarc Massacar : Nope. Here’s your second hint: it doesn’t sacrifice itself, it sacs something else.

Also, it’s casting cost only has red in it, but its EDH color identity is Gruul.

October 29, 2020 11:15 p.m.

gavriel1136 says... #31

October 29, 2020 11:16 p.m.

enpc says... #32

MagicMarc: Jeweled Lotus adds 3 mana of one colour, which was a smart design call. That means no turn 1 Atraxa, Breya or Omnath4 unfortunately.

October 29, 2020 11:38 p.m.

MagicMarc says... #33

Oops thought it was 3 of any. That makes it even more manageable.

October 29, 2020 11:50 p.m.

plakjekaas says... #34

It doesn't help you casting 99% of the cards in your deck (98 if you play partners)

This is more narrow than Mox Opal, I don't think it will be as huge as everyone expects it to be.

Everyone who has tried Pillar of Origins in a deck knows how constricting restrictive mana like this is.

It's powerful, in the right decks, don't get me wrong, but it's not the end-all for the format, just like Sol Ring isn't.

You will be fine.

October 30, 2020 2:26 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #35

I find it no coincidence that the majority of posters freaking out in this thread are primarily casual brewers. I have been thinking and discussing this card with friends since it was spoiled, and I think it is far from the death of competitive, and I urge anyone claiming that to think about the actual decks of competitive edh. I think this card will cause the most damage to casual and high powered jank decks, and its impact on cedh will be limited to a small handful of decks that will run it.

It is obviously a powerful card, but the cedh meta is already full of powerful cards. We should begin by evaluating how the card works and is used

  • 3 of the same color mana, only to be used on commanders. Outside of some niche cases like using the mana for Glissa Sunseeker, the mana will be used to accelerate into commanders.
  • Commanders with WUBRG costs will benefit the least. Commanders with 1 or 2 colors will benefit the most. This is due to how the colored mana goes into casting costs. For example, Kess, Dissident Mage will only be able to get 2 ramp from it, as the cost only allows 2 of the same colored mana to be used. However, the lotus will work well with commander tax and be fully usable anytime after the first time a commander is cast
  • If your commander is already in play, drawing a lotus will not advance your game plan in the slightest (this is a very important caveat)

Competitive decks already tend to run commanders low to the ground. Competitive decks also splash harder in 3-5 colors, with 1-2 color decks being less common. You also see quite a few 3 and 4 color partner piles in competitive. Jeweled Lotus has bonus value with double the amount of targets, but once again you are getting lots of waste because the desirable partners are already low CMC to cast. Many will choose to ignore the lotus for their partner piles, most notably Tymna + Thrasios

I firmly believe the biggest splash this will make in competitive is with all-in combo decks and strategies. Having the possibility of a dead draw later in the game if it isn't in your opening 7 is a big turn off for many decks, especially when layering is so heavy and slots are already at a premium. Decks that are all-in don't mind mulliganing to find Jeweled Lotus, and it will do its best work when in the opening 7.

Here is my list of what decks I think will possibly run Jeweled Lotus and why

  • Urza, Lord High Artificer: Hit turn 1 Urza's easily. It is a Mox Sapphire if drawn after Urza is already in, negating the dead draw possibility.
  • Sidisi, Undead Vizier: This deck is all-in to play Sidisi and find Ad Nauseam. The 3 mana burst can hit a lot of fast Sidisi's, but it can also be useful if Sidisi gets countered and you need to get to 7 mana to try again. Sidisi can mulligan aggressively to find Lotus if it wants to
  • Godo, Bandit Warlord: 3 mana towards your 11 mana to win. It is colored, so can be used to play Godo, allowing you to keep hands with exclusively colorless mana. Godo is another deck that can mulligan aggressively for Lotus
  • The Gitrog Monster: This deck is very commander dependent, and totally willing to sacrifice cards to ram the commander turn 1 or 2. Once again, this deck will be aggressively mulliganing anyways
  • Prime Speaker Vannifar: Get commander in, tap it to win. Hitting turn 1 Vannifars will help the game plan immensely. Helps to recover when you need to play commander a 2nd time for a win attempt
  • Elsha of the Infinite: Can use all 3 mana produced, avoids dead draw scenario by playing it off the top. This deck is 100% commander dependent, so having 3 towards playing Elsha a second time is good insurance for the deck.
  • Tasigur, the Golden Fang: Able to play Tasigur faster without delving your entire graveyard or having any graveyard at all. Not a huge power swing like other commanders, but a very likely include. In fact, you can use the lotus, then delve it, effectively making it 4 ramp for Tasigur's first cast.
  • Muldrotha, the Gravetide: Can't be used as combo back up for LED, but it can come back from the GY for free in case Muldrotha gets removed to make subsequent casts easier. Once again, not a huge power swing but noticeable and likely inclusion, especially since the Muldrotha combos require Muldrotha on the field
  • Kraum, Ludevic's Opus: The main partner commander I think that will really want the lotus. Landing this turn 1 or 2 will let the Kraum player quickly and easily bury others in card advantage.
  • Tana, the Bloodsower: The only other partner commander I think will really want to auto include the lotus. Getting this out turn 1 can build up saprolings very fast, and it makes the Tymna coming in after extremely live. Will probably only be seen with Tana + Tymna, but that is the primary Tana partner for cedh anyways

Jeweled Lotus may see play in other decks as it is the flavor of the month, but I bet that ultimately many competitive builds will abandon the card. Some decks are uniquely positioned to capitalize on the speed of a commander landing sooner, and those decks will really love the card.

The printing of Opposition Agent will likely cause significantly more problems for the format, especially since Maralen of the Mornsong became a deck overnight. Coincidentally, Opposition Agent shuts down about half of my list of decks positioned to abuse the new lotus, and the half it leaves won't combo out to win as soon as the commander resolves from the fast mana.

Jeweled Lotus is a powerful card, and Wizards should never have printed it. That being said, I firmly disagree that it will kill competitive edh, and I firmly believe it will do far more damage to casual and high powered decks.

October 30, 2020 2:45 a.m.

I came here to say something similar to dingusdingo. It is good, but is it really better than Mana Crypt or Sol Ring? They are at the very least comparable.

Here is where I think it becomes dangerous - it is yet another cheap, high powered colorless rock. Commander is a great format because its singleton nature coupled with the 100 card requirements mean that there is a good chance that a card won't end up in your starting hand, even with mulligans. Like any high-powered mana rock, this card depreciates over the game - it's most powerful when played turn 1, and might even be a dead card later in the game, especially when you are looking for your win condition. If this was the only card like this, it would be fine. However, with each aggressively costed powerful rock printed, the variance in commander goes down and the consistency goes up. This allows broken and game-winning effects to happen more and more consistently. It begs the question - where does it stop? These cards can go in literally any deck, and their effectiveness compounds each time a similar card is printed. If we ONLY had Mana Crypt or Sol Ring or Jeweled Lotus, the format would balance out because the odds of starting with that single card are low. But now we have all three. That is what I think the biggest issue with this is - not its existence in a vacuum (where I think it is high powered, but not necessarily format changing), but rather its existence among other cards.

October 30, 2020 6:12 a.m.

EleshNornsFs says... #37

VampDemigod Isn't it a satyr out of the Theros block? Costs a green and then does something for 3 red?

October 30, 2020 6:40 a.m.

It will not be the death of Cedh. Will it speed up some fast combo decks? Yes. Is that the end of the world? No. It can only be used once and you can't abuse it with something like an auriok Scavengers. Decks already pack so much interaction that its not the lotus itself thats the problem its what u put int play with it, and as I said, there is interaction.

October 30, 2020 7 a.m.

VampDemigod says... #39

Gavriel yes. Also sorry MagicMarc I didn’t see the guess #2 where you got it. XD

October 30, 2020 9:39 a.m.

FauxFaux says... #40

To be frank, a functionally similar reprint of Black Lotus is def poggers, but at the same exchange, it won't be on the same level of power against cards like the aforementioned Sol Ring or even Mana Crypt.

Is it a dumb card to make? sure. Will it break EDH? No, not really. Any notion that provides the idea that this card will kill "Kitchen Table EDH" is negligible at best. Most pods or cubes can simply say "We'd rather not allow people to play this card", and that's fine. At the end of the day, WoTC doesn't own your pods, WoTC doesn't control your ability to play, you do. Don't be surprised, however, when if you want to play for pay, that rules and conditions may apply.

Now, with that being said, I am not a huge fan of WoTC just "tweaking" reserved list cards to make a "Big Shiny" for the set. It's bait, and I hope everyone sees that. (I am not a Whale or collector btw, down with the reserved list and all that,) but the fact remains that WoTC obviously is trying to ween influence from collectors and whales, and forget they have a player base that doesn't have that ludicrous amount of money for a hobby, and that's insane. Look at standard ffs. It's a mad house. Now, they are seeing that EDH is a profitable land to plunder, and are seeking to drain this ocean of genuine love and care for the game into a decrepit bog of depravity and sadness.

For the love of god, please, don't take any of my mad ramblings seriously, as it is just that; the ramblings of a mad man.

October 30, 2020 10:03 a.m.

TriusMalarky says... #41

So.... It's just a weird Mana Vault that makes few-colored combo decks a little faster?

It'll make a splash, but it's not banworthy. I mean, it just makes some combo decks a little more consistent in fast wins.

And I'm not worried about Opposition Agent either. It's by far more toxic against hyper casuals who still run land ramp, and in that case it's just gonna be housebanned anyways.

I think cEDH is SO powerful that just because a card is extremely good and will definitely be used, it's not really gonna make any one deck all "Hey I win all the time". I mean, unlike Standard which is almost always a hellhole and Modern and Pioneer which explode when ONE little thing gets printed, cEDH can take cards that would break even Vintage and just... add them to their decks. With the nature of it, both BossLotus and OppAgent will be added to large proportions of decks, giving no one deck a real advantage. There may be a couple decks that don't get a really cool busted card from Legends, but... it's cEDH. The game can be over faster than any other format, but it's not because you also have the best interaction of all time.

October 30, 2020 10:15 a.m.

VampDemigod says... #42

SimicVisionRy Oh, we know you’re mad. Your name has Simic in it. (Jk, jk, please don’t send a monstrosity to the gates of the Izzet/Dimir district—YES I WORK CROSS-GUILD PLEASE JUST DON’T SEND AN ALLIGATOR AFTER ME!)

TriusMalarky You’re forgetting that the agent hits fetchlands. It’s not godly, but it’s better than you’re implying.

October 30, 2020 10:18 a.m.

VampDemigod says... #43

But yeah nothing from the set is getting banned from CEDH. Think of how many things were “going to break CEDH”. Then think of how the CEDH community handled the Flash banning. “Ok thanks, we’re good now”. All the cards that were “going to break the format”? Ignored.

October 30, 2020 10:21 a.m.

RiotRunner789 says... #44

I do not care about cEDH.

What worries myself it that my playgroup typically runs optimized decks. I have definitely seen decks getting more tuned with the flood of new commander cards and have had to keep up in a magical the scrounging arms race.

At some point, the difference between cEDH and my optimized group may become indistinguishable and essentially make EDH a 100 card modern format. I hate modern. Fuck modern. (I don't care if you play modern but I won't be joining you).

I just want the power creep to stop being a power sprint and to just move at a slow 'creeping' pace.

October 30, 2020 10:55 a.m.

RiotRunner789, I think a more accurate comparison would be vintage/legacy lmao.

October 30, 2020 10:57 a.m.

FauxFaux says... #46

VampDemigod you'd be wise to toe that line, lol. shhhhh Scuttlegator, shhhh, it's ok, he just isn't simply perfect as you are..

But yes, it's a big flashy card to try and sell packs. Chasin' those sparkles is what naive people do. or Goblins. but.....no one here is a Gobbo, right......right....?

October 30, 2020 11:08 a.m.

EleshNornsFs says... #47

IDK, I might be a compleated goblin piloting a fleshy mech, like Phyrexian Gargantua. I don't remember what I was before I was given the gift of perfection.

October 30, 2020 11:23 a.m.

How dare you insult my race of Crackhead red dudes!!! This will mean war!!! And ur gator is ugly.

October 30, 2020 11:26 a.m.

TriusMalarky says... #49

VampDemigod no, I didn't forget. Are you aware that there are at least four somewhat playable cards that hate on fetches?

Aven Mindcensor, Ashiok, Dream Render, Shadow of Doubt, Leonin Arbiter....

What's one more? This is EDH. OppAgent will likely replace Ashiok, or Praetor's Grasp, or be used in addition if someone wants to go all-in on an Esper "nope" deck. I mean, we can already stax out the entire board really early with all sorts of degenerate cards like Winter Orb. I don't think "nobody at all can tutor" is more powerful than "nobody gets lands".

October 30, 2020 11:35 a.m.

MagicMarc says... #50

I think even casual commander playgroups won't care about this lotus in the long run. If your playgroup is like mine, we don't really care if you are even playing banned stuff or silver border stuff as long is it isnt something too insane or oppressive.

I have a bigger problem with Aminatou, the Fateshifter's ultimate than this card.

October 30, 2020 12:15 p.m.

Please login to comment