Chulane vs. Roon?
Posted on July 25, 2019, 9:58 p.m. by ZendikariWol
I’m just here to stimulate conversation as to whether there is any scenario under which Chulane, Teller of Tales is better than Roon of the Hidden Realm . Because the differences are twofold, I think.
1) Chulane is itself a bounce payoff, which means it has a bit of a leg up on Roon there.
2, the massive downside) Chulane’s ability doesn’t trigger when a creature enters the battlefield, but when you cast a creature spell. How massive is this downside and is there any way the casting clause can be abused or can be better than an ETB?
My first instinct is that Chulane is more combo-y than Roon. Cloud of Faeries + Laboratory Maniac comes to mind immediately. Roon is, I think, more shenanigans-oriented, with tricks like Sundial of the Infinite and he also has a much cheaper activated ability than Chulane.
In the end I can shout out my point of view until the cows come home, but that’s not what you go to forums for. I want feedback!! What do you guys think?
roon is just a flicker effect where there's other flicker engines at lower cmc or the same cmc but no mana cost and no summoning sickness.
So essentially chulane will be much stronger but for a much different deck.
July 25, 2019 10:54 p.m.
Point of order- there is one other commander that flickers that’s even okay, and that’s Brago, King Eternal . Why is Roon better than Brago? Reclamation Sage , Guardian Project , Aura Shards , and a litany of other spells I’m not getting into rn.
My question to you, Demarge, is “to what end?” Yes, Chulane draws SOOOO many cards. But to what end? Drawing your deck only wins you the game if no one has removal for a lab maniac.
July 26, 2019 12:20 a.m.
If you can draw you deck you more than likely have answers for answers. Eternal Witness , Elixir of Immortality , lab jace to give you more chances. You can also draw in to flash hulk or Nexus of Fate .
July 26, 2019 12:45 a.m.
One massive reason why Brago is above roon in flicker deck power level is because he needs just one hit and you can flicker nearly your entire board and can hit any of your nonlands, roon can flicker one creature which from a pure powerlevel consideration he is just unplayable compared, like you could run Eldrazi Displacer in a roon deck and in most cases you'd be using the displacer's ablility for immediate etb abuse over roon's own ability, especially if you have a Training Grounds or Biomancer's Familiar out the only time roon would be used over would be either an opponent's creature needing fogged or you've ran out of colorless mana.
And you could even just run chulane in an etb abuse deck, lets take Reclamation Sage for example with roon it's first cast can be essentially a 4G 2x Naturalize while with chulane it'd be 2G Naturalize + Explore .
Now Chulane's combo's likely won't draw an entire deck, but we're in Bant, there's a good 6 or so spells we can run that will stop opponents from casting spells on our turn, we also can run counterspells. there is also the fact we can get around Torpor Orb effects with chulane's trigger and chulane would be more likely to run non etb effects as the trigger still goes off a Caustic Caterpillar (a 1 cmc Explore that also draws a Naturalize that can become cheaper with Training Grounds ) while roon doesn't interact with it at all without outside etb aid.
In short the biggest reason why chulane will work better than roon can be explained with this video on what cedh players look for their commanders.
July 26, 2019 6:45 a.m.
Fair point with Brago. There are certainly plenty of situations where he’s better than Roon, and I would just cry without him in my 99, but sometimes you just can’t land a hit. Still, this would definitely not be the hill I choose to die on, if I’m choosing. I don’t play Brago because there’s a disproportionate amount of fliers in my meta (a dragon deck’ll do that), which means I usually can’t land a hit with him. If you can guarantee a hit with him that’s a whole other argument. I might talk to you about it if that shift ever happens.
You’re absolutely right, Demarge, Chulane is probably more competitive because he combos better. That was clear from the get go. Even mentioned it in my description. So now that one ring of commander players is out of the way, what do you think about the casuals? In a casual meta, which of the two do you think is more abusable/has more synergies to it?
July 26, 2019 9:14 a.m.
There are more ways to win than lab man when you have your entire deck in your hand if I'm being frank. Even then, underselling lab man by saying he's susceptible to removal is a bit moot because after essentially Growth Spiral ing your entire library, you're bound to have mana open for a counter spell or instant speed cantrip to stack on top of the removal spell and win the game before it resolves.
To be honest I'm not a huge fan of Bant because I always felt as if the colors have an identity crisis and don't really have a common trait to stay focused on like some other shards and wedges do. However, I will say that Chulane has most synergy out of these two options from a pure value perspective in both the casual and competitive sense. Roon is still probably better for casual if you want to do some janky blink shenanigans, while Chulane is more viable in competitive but wouldn't be hard to build around casually either.
July 26, 2019 10:40 a.m.
I'd also like to add that a cast trigger isn't necessarily a downside. You get the trigger regardless of whether or not the creature resolves. Sure you don't get double Panharmonicon triggers but that's really a non-issue most of the time because Chulane's ability is honestly powerful enough on its own. Torpor Orb effects don't shut him down for example.
July 26, 2019 11:21 a.m. Edited.
Yeah, I really don't think the combination of card advantage and mana ramp packed into Chulane is something to sleep on. That's some pretty solid value just for casting a creature. Sure, it'll cost more to bounce a creature back and recast it than it would be to flicker with Roon, but Chulane's ramping makes it easier to offset that cost. Roon does have a slight offensive advantage, though, so that may be something else to consider. But overall I think Chulane brings more to the table.
July 26, 2019 5:04 p.m.
ZendikariWol it's casual commander, both would honestly be viable, they can pick the one with the cooler art or the one they have already, but chulane's raw power would still give the casual player more consistency, like Memnite has synergy with him that doesn't exist with roon so there's many more ways to build chulane than there is for roon, a deck with mana dorks, low cmc utility creatures, and lands could make for a weird deck for chulane that would be fun to try out.