BMH's Biggest Hot Take: Magus' should be allowed in all cEDH groups (Maybe).
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on Aug. 21, 2018, 12:05 p.m. by BMHKain
NOTE: these are just my thoughts, backed up by points regarding both the Magus, & the Original. Be warned.
cEDH is, IMO, a subformat willing to drain you of all of your wallet; with one card. So I'm going to show why sometimes, even a Magus could be an (OK) alt.
Before we start this fish fry, keep in mind, I know some staples aren't even expensive; but some are just out of even the range of some of the the most lavish of Mercadia.
Before we begin, I just want to show the comparison to the Magus version to the original version of said cards. So? What the heck are we waiting for?
Yep. Fraggin 18 Magus' (possibly) worth playing in cEDH. Now for their original base cards...
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Balance (BANNED AS ANYTHING.)
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Mind's Desire (Anyone got something closer?)
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Moat (Obviously...)
Yep, these 17.5 (I'm not sure about Mind's Desire, though; just comment about whatever Magus of the Mind is an homage to, & I'll edit this...). Let's start with...
POINT 一
Yep, I'm doing Kanji for the points. Anyways...
- Most of the latter cards are too expensive for some.
While I won't count Blood Moon, Nevinyrral's Disk, & even Future Sight (Thank Bolas those are Consistently being Reprinted.), We have stuff that can reach as far as 4 figures at worst. Ironically, stuffle like Eladamri's Vineyard is surprisingly cheap as well as its respective Magus. Sadly, that's where the point comes in. Most of the original cards in our economy are either:
A: In the 3 Figures >
B: Banned (See Balance; which, ironically, is cheaper than its Magus counterpart.)
C: Something your average decklist is worth in cash (Unless it requires 2 or 3 of them.)
Don't get me wrong, It's not that the card is "bad", it's just I can't just pay for something that I can make the rest of my deck with instead. Just my honest opinion...
POINT 二
- They have the same Manacost/Effect
You may, & must have paid attention to the similarities of the Bases & the Magus'; those without a Land Base have an identical CMC, & even the same manacost regardless of either the Base/Magus. Don't believe me? Look above. The only Magus' to have costs to effects that are differing are Magus of the Balance, Magus of the Wheel, Magus of the Mind, & Magus of the Will even. Outside of this, Effects are entirely identical to the original. While manacosts are relatively high for Manacosts for Magus' with a Land version Base, nothing wrong with rocks/dorks, I guess...
POINT 三
- Creatures can be supported by other cards for protection.
Sad to say, Creatures are among the most fragile of Permanents in all things Magic (The Most Fragile though, are Planeswalkers, they have yet to have a cEDH Deck of their own... Odd. :/) However, there are ways in which even in cEDH, Magus', & Creatures in general, do have some kind of protection:
Lightning Greaves is entirely versatile & can work in all decks in a pinch (Unless your Comander is a Walker, then you'll have to work on what creatures In The 99 (Or if you want to use both Will Kenrith, & Rowan Kenrith as Partner Commanders for The 98; But who in god's name would do that?!) Swiftfoot Boots has an equip cost, but generously gives creatures Hexproof. A solid Alt. for the "Other Boots of Haste". Trailblazer's Boots is the last to recommend for footwear as it has Nonbasic Landwalk. Effects from players with even a Fetchland will do zilch, & if the creature in question has a Power amount, it can bypass Blocks entirely. Problem? You'd need a Non-Basic yourself if your opponent attacks; but this is an impossibility for essentially, all the best cEDH decks! Cards like Flicker/Bounce/ and even Brago, King Eternal can bounce your own creatures, evading actual target. One of the Best examples of this is Venser, Shaper Savant who comes into play as a Triggered Ability; bypassing even stuff like Krosan Grip & even other stuff that threatens your cards. *For Auras, There are so many that work so well, I can't even make a list of them all. Aqueous Form makes enchanted creature Unblockable; & when it attacks, it allows you to Scry 1. Canopy Cover Allows your creature to be attacked by Fliers & those w/ Reach; that & it gets Hexproof. Even Gift of Immortality is capable of bringing back even Commanders if need be.
Not all Auras can be used appropriately in all 5 individual colors, but some Auras can screw with your opponents' cards in an attempt to disrupt their stratagem. in particular has stuff that affects the opponents' cards, & the opponent themselves. has Darksteel Mutation & has Imprisoned in the Moon, which essentially turns a creature, land, or even a Planeswalker into a Wastes.
This is still a WIP. Anyone having better ideas to protect Creatures in cEDH, let me know.
With that said, there are some things I actually would like to see WotC reprint as Magus'. I mean; Timetwister is expensive as garbage. But if the Magic Group can make a Magus for that, with a cost I guess, I'd be sold; that; & I wouldn't have to worry about exiling other Timetwister Variants. Nether Void is in the 4 figures, so why can't the R&D group do something about it with a Magus? Stuff from Legends, The Dark, & some others have Magus variants already, why not have some more?
Hello, I'm BMHKain. I apologize if I caused any offense, I'm a cheapskate since I started during Scars of Mirrodin. BTW, how can you guys even afford all this, & more? Just wondering...
Thanks for reading... ^_^ I had to edit this to be more... Conservative. That & I had to redo a Part entirely. Still in the works though. :/
@cdkime: Hmmm... I actually expected that happening. (Sigh...) I'm guessing I am an idiot for posting this? I don't like spending too much on one mere card, you know. 3 figures is sketchy enough for me... More than that would have to mean such a player must have taken care of such ancient stuff for almost a 1/4 century...
...
BTW: I was referring to spot removal for creatures. & that it seems to me there is more of those for Artifacts & Enchantments.
I'm standing by on what I said about the Magus' (Unless everyone hatemails me to a fault where this thread needs to close, no exceptions.) though... X/
August 21, 2018 1:50 p.m.
On the other hand, though, good point about colors & their limits. Now, I'm trying to make a cEDH deck regarding Firesong & Sunspeaker that doesn't need to use Stax to win, & still be in at least Tier 2.5...
August 21, 2018 2:01 p.m.
Friendly word of advice, someone disagreeing with you does not mean your ideas are bad or that you’re an idiot. You clearly feel passionate about this issue, based upon the long post - my taking issue with what you said is no reason to chafe how you feel.
Further, though your post was a bit all over the place, my understanding of your ultimate thesis is that you believe the Maguses make solid budget alternatives to their original counterparts. You will note that I specifically agreed with that statement.
August 21, 2018 5:59 p.m.
@cdkime: Got it. Dunno how I got upvoted though; I'll see what I can revise in the future... I just hope I don't get any crittie neg (Negative Criticizm BTW.) from others... & I'll see what I can do from there (Still making an Esper $+@KS deck btw...), though it'll take awhile... I feel like apologizing... X/
August 21, 2018 6:36 p.m.
I do not know much about CEDH, I play primarily normal commander. I would agree, some of these magi are good alternatives to the OG card. Particularly:
The magus representing Abyss, Blood Moon, Yawgmoth's Will are the only ones currently worth it, maybe the new Balance guy too, but I have not seen him much. The rest are meh to too expensive or slow.
Magus of the Tabernacle is 4 mana and can only be played in white decks, and is vulnerable to its own effect, compared to the colorless land which can come down turn 1. The only downside of the actual Tabernacle is the 4 digit price tag. Magus of the Mind is a good replacement or redundant copy to Mind's Desire but it has summoning sickness, so it cannot fire right away.
I agree the OG cards are too expensive. I for one do not like that Yawgmoth's Will is nearly triple digits. But they are also very specific, tailored to exactly one deck, so 99% of decks do not need these OG cards.
August 22, 2018 2:37 a.m.
I see little reason other than affordability/ban status to play the creature version over the non-creature version. Creatures are slower, easier to remove and a lot of the Maguses are more mana hungry than their counterpart.
that said, I'd love to see more Maguses for Nether Void, Chains of Mephistopheles and other 4 digit price tags :)
August 22, 2018 4:05 a.m.
Actually, I kind of regret this Hot Take of mine (It's a meme term on the web that I see some on Twitter do.), & I apologize for such a stupid post on here I the first place. Better to leave this to rest than have more critique making me have a mixed mind (As well as a regretting one...). Sorry that I made this in the first place BTW. >,<
August 22, 2018 8:48 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #10
BMHKain chin up. This is not a bad post. You raise some valid points. There are decks that can easily abuse the fact that the maguses are creatures instead of the og cards that are other card types. There are some questionable thoughts on removal in your post, but overall I agree that they can be a great budget option. No need to apologize or be embarrased. Nobody is perfect and you are bound to get some critiques, but especially in cases like this you need to look at the overall feedback rather than just minor parts that are critiques and try to learn from the criticism instead of being embarrased by it. (This last part I really need to work on myself).
Keep up the good work. You are killing it!
August 22, 2018 9:38 a.m.
Again, there is really no need to regret posting. No one is asking you to apologize. The reason we're all here is to discuss Magic, and discussions are quite dull when everyone is agreeing with the same point. Just because there's been disagreement with some of your points does not mean people think you or your post are stupid. Rather than apologize, you should learn from what others have posted, taking that information to make you a better Magic player.
At its core, the concept of the thread is solid--how to build a cEDH deck on a budget. There's probably a whole slew of articles/threads that could be written on this topic, from when budget alternatives are practical, to budget competitive mana bases, to why some cards are worth opening your wallet for. This could be a valuable resource to newer players, provided it was done properly. You could try taking a stab at such an article yourself, though I highly recommend you edit before posting (and perhaps ask an outside eye to edit the post for you).
August 22, 2018 9:41 a.m.
Hmph. Alright. I'll edit this mess in a way that fits well for "The Least Couple People". However by the time this is posted; until further notice, nobody is to post here until I revise it in a way that it works. I'll work on it from here & be less offensive from here... Wish me luck...
August 22, 2018 9:58 a.m.
GhostChieftain says... #13
It was already not offensive. People just didn't agree on all points. Chillax
August 22, 2018 10:27 a.m.
Had to revise Point 3 & some minor things. I was trying to mention 3 ways for all 6 colors to protect such things each. Jeez not all of them seem consistent enough... & I still dunno if Magus of the Mind is supposed to be based on Mind's Desire or not... Any suggestions for better ways for all 6 colors? Even Boardwipes seem like overkill...
August 22, 2018 11:04 a.m.
Since you asked for advice on your third point, I'll be candid in doing so. I suppose I must make this abundantly clear--this is not a personal attack against you. You asked for feedback, and, in doing so, I feel it is my obligation to provide same. Reading constructive criticism is the best way to further yourself as a writer, player, and person--rather than take it personally, process and understand what is written, and try to learn from the critique.
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Your thesis is poorly written. Properly, you should write "Creatures are easier to protect than other permanents." As it stands, your thesis says nothing--it is merely a statement that creatures can be protected. The same is true of other permanent types as well. When making an argument, you have to use stronger language that more clearly states the point you are trying to make.
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Your examples do not support the thesis. Most all of your examples apply to all permanents across the board--as such, they're not very helpful in proving creatures are easier to protect than non-creature permanents. Boardwipes are actively counterproductive, as it requires more work to protect your creature from a Wrath of God than it does to protect an enchantment.
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Instead, ditch the colour portion, and focus on information that supports your point. For example:
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There exist a greater number of auras to protect creatures, many of which have additional, beneficial effects. Given this wealth of options, it is conceivable you can find an aura that both protects your creature and advances your gameplan.
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There are a number of solid artifacts to protect creatures, most notably Lightning Greaves. These are solid options for protecting your creatures with very little investment. Further, they do not run the risk of being two-for-one'd if your creature does manage to be removed. Artifacts can also be run in any colour deck, providing flexibility in your deckbuilding.
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There exist more options to grant creatures hexproof or indestructible than other permanents.
August 22, 2018 12:02 p.m.
Alright. I dunno if I got this right this time. So what do you guys think?
August 22, 2018 2:35 p.m.
Hey man, it's not about getting it right. It's about telling your opinion, giving arguments to support it, and receiving arguments against it.
Criticism (negative or positive) is always a good thing. The fact that you are willing to revise your opinion means that you are open to said criticism. Keep it up! You are handling this with the right attitude; you just need to be a little more confident in yourself. We are not out to get you and if anyone makes you feel that way, let us know and we will support you all the way!
Caerwyn says... #2
You are incorrect about creatures being harder to remove than other permanents. Creatures are, hands down, the easiest to remove. From Wraths to destroying, from damage to exiling, from fighting to pacifying, there are countless ways to deal with creatures. From a brief look at MTGTop8 for Commander, of the top 10 most played cards, six of them are designed specifically to kill creatures.
Black and Red have little to no interaction with enchantments; Black has little interaction with artifacts; Blue can bounce permanents, but, without counterspells, isn't so great at removing them. On the other hand, each colour has a way to deal with creatures (though Blue still suffers the same limitation).
Some of the Magnues are strictly worse than their originals--after all, cards like Magus of the Wheel sit about for a full turn before you can activate their ability.
Some of the originals are instants or sorceries, which are very hard to interact with sans counterspells.
Overall, I think the Maguses are a solid budget alternatives to the original cards, but I don't agree with your thesis that there are non-budget reasons to pick the Magus over the original.
August 21, 2018 12:52 p.m.