Am I Assessing Commander Decks Wrong?: A Story and Discussion.
Commander (EDH) forum
Posted on June 25, 2016, 9:41 p.m. by Gidgetimer
I was playing commander on Untap earlier and posted a game that I described as "low-mid power". The deck I used was my Bruna, Light of Alabaster deck. (Enchantment Voltron EDH if anyone is curious. Also please remember this is a conversation, not a deck help, I welcome suggestions but that is not the point of this thread.)
I made each of my land drops, my plays were
Turn 2- Silver Myr.
Turn 3- Unquestioned Authority on the myr for just some draw paying into Rhystic Study so its controller wouldn't draw.
Turn 4- Frantic Search, again paying into Rhystic Study.
Turn 5- Bruna, allow Study to draw a card for its controller.
Turn 6- Swing at the guy who had a Grave Pact out because I have no creatures in hand and already had to sac my myr. Swing total ended up being 25 because of the drawing I had done. All three opponents ragequit.
The discussion I would like to have is about expectations for games and how to describe decks in no uncertain terms. There seems to be a disconnect in the community about power level. What one player assesses as "weak mid-tier" may seem over powered to others.
My Bruna deck is a far from optimal deck with a mid grade commander. She dies to any removal and is blanked by a clone effect. I have few ways to remove threats or interact with my opponent's plan. By revealing my commander before we shuffle up I am basicly revealing my plan for the entire game. In short what I see as a weak mid-tier deck. The players I was going against seem to think that the possibility of a turn 6 single player kill precludes my deck from being anything except high tier. So, am I assessing commander decks wrong?
I think every play group is just so different. I have "fair" decks that I start with in a new group because I have yet to solve this problem myself.
I consider a "fair" deck to be "all decks minus the ones that someone complained about". For example, Wort, the Raidmother isn't included because someone ragequit over the deck doing 15 direct damage.
I do make an exception to the "fair deck first game" rule for players who either don't think they are beatable or seem to be making more out of the result of the game than just having fun.
June 25, 2016 10:28 p.m. Edited.
JANKYARD_DOG says... #4
What was the pod size? Six turns should be plenty of time to set up, and also for your opponents to have some sort of answer for things. 25 isn't 40, nor is it an infinite combo so no need to rage quit... I myself hate oppressive decks... But I have one lol, had to put it away for awhile because I became Public Enemy #1. Never rage quit though, its just bad. Online is worse though because your just a user ID... No real risk of infamy I guess.
June 25, 2016 10:30 p.m.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #5
I just realized my choice of wording could be more accurately worded as:
fuck those guys, they're bitches if they scoop after that.
@guessling someone ragequit over something like that? that's just sad.
June 25, 2016 10:44 p.m. Edited.
Epochalyptik says... #6
It's obviously very subjective, so there's no single metric for judging how competitive or well-tuned a deck is.
As a general rule, though, keep in mind that a deck that seems low end or average to a good player, who knows how to build even more powerful decks, might seem well designed and quite powerful in its own respect to a player with fewer resources or less experience.
For example, if you're used to building with bulk rares, a modified precon with a few shocks and an Oracle of Mul Daya might have a more reliable mana base than anything you've put together.
June 25, 2016 11:07 p.m.
Coinman1863 says... #7
From my own personal expiriance as a major member of the competitive EDH community, we realized that only two real power levels are recognized.
Casual: No inf turns or combos, MLD, stax etc.
Competitive: The gauntlet is thrown and people start slinging their Force of Wills, Timetwisters, and Imperial Seals around the table.
If you fall somewhere in the middle, you sometimes get screwed inadvertently by people expecting a casual game and you give them something slightly more powerfull then that which makes them rage quit because you did not meet their expectations. Like they haven't felt real power by everyone loosing turn 3 to Prossh or Ad Nauseam Doomsday Zur so, they really have no metric aside from their own small test environment where power levels go. Even my my flavor of bruna, cEDH Bruna, would probably make them rage quit not because it one shots people, but because it drags the game to a snails pace.
In short, don't take them seriously. You should always ask first "casual or competitive" and then choose your deck accordingly. But yes, your original assertion is correct. In my eyes, your deck is casual. Not because your deck is bad, but because it won't be able to keep up with the other competitive decks. But others who may have never have seen a voltron deck before, may think it OP by the ability to be shot people. It just comes down to perspective and what other have seen before.
June 26, 2016 12:23 a.m.
Postmortal_Pop says... #8
I agree with the previous statements that strength is subjective to th be opponent, I think the idea of creating a universal metric for deck power sounds like a fascinating endeavor.
June 26, 2016 12:30 a.m.
UpperDeckerTaco says... #9
I have killed my opponent on turn 4 General, Sigarda, Host of Herons, damage. And it was the best possible God draw. And people I played with just shrugged and said it happens. It's because they know broken things can happen and we play competitively but try not to do "too broken" of things. They're probably just garbage players to be honest.
June 26, 2016 1 a.m.
Epochalyptik says... #10
I'll point out that writing other players off as garbage or bitches does nothing to actually improve the community.
June 26, 2016 1:10 a.m.
Deckologist says... #11
So, something everyone needs to know. EDH players complain. They complain no matter what. I've even known players that complain when they win. EDH is setup on the foundation of being a social format which a lot of players mistake for casual. This simply isn't true. It is all playgroup dependent but even from the groups I play with there are always going to be arguments or players getting upset over something. A perfect example is the shop I frequent the most. There are a bunch of newer players that combo off on turn 7-10. The shop rules (that I helped draft) called for no infinite combos but of course there is no way to punish infinite combos in free play other than not playing with that person. Anyways, these rules were set in motion because the older players of the shop had been playing competitively for so long that we just wanted to take it slow and have fun games. Well this new group comes in and we keep telling them that we are going to bring our old combo decks in if they keep comboing off which was met with snickers and taunts to try and beat them. I brought my Sydri deck that I bring to tournaments and slaughtered them on turns 2-4 relentlessly. They then proceeded to complain to the shop owner that infinite combos were lame and that they didn't like that the shop allowed them. Both he and I looked at them and started laughing.
Long story short, you can't please everyone.
Also a large amount of EDH players seem to follow the "that's unfair unless I'm the one doing it" rule
June 26, 2016 3:41 a.m.
PookandPie says... #12
Complaining is just something that people do. Some people have an inflated sense of their own capabilities (Dunning-Kruger effect, our favorite little term of late), while others think you're doing it wrong because you're not playing just like they are.
You've been at the table when someone gets angry and openly yells at me for retaliating on them for destroying/exiling/whatever'ing something of mine, even if that action does nothing but screw them over and, according to the person screaming, "Won't help you win."
You've been at the receiving end of people saying that what you're doing, which you think is completely fair, is somehow busted. They exclaim that their playgroup is, "Competitive" but they are actually ignorant of what that term could mean in conjunction with Commander. The, "We're the best that we've seen" argument. Ignorant isn't being used as an insult here, either- it merely means they lack the information to adequately make the aforementioned judgment.
You've been exposed to someone who sits there and f***s with you the whole game simply so you don't win "too" early, which gave another player in the group an overblown sense of his own Commander capabilities so he got a severe ego check upon moving to a new venue.
Sometimes people think you should play just like they do: If you don't, then you're obviously mistaken on how Commander is supposed to be played. Going out of your way to make an entertaining board state by copying an opponent's Grave Pact without destroying theirs? You're obviously doing it wrong, despite the fact that you're control and repeatedly board wiping all creatures is actually beneficial until you can reach enough mana to cast all of your combo pieces in one turn; but they don't know that. They don't know what's in your hand- or in your deck. They just know that you're doing it wrong and you're a horrible person.
Sometimes they think they're better than you, and don't like it when someone shows them that their previous conceptions were mistaken. Or, maybe they just don't think anything of you- but they know that they're good. Like, Richard Garfield would goes out on the street to make money for them, because they're just that damned pimpin'. You know the types- and because you present evidence to the contrary, you're doing it wrong and you're a horrible person.
What I'm getting at- and follow me on this- is that you're doing it wrong and you're a horrible person. But keep at it, you beautiful bastard, you, because no one can tell you how to have fun except yourself. Those who play online will either have to learn and adapt, or develop online groups to play with in order to stay within their comfort zones- they can't expect you to know what their comfort zone is beyond telling you that no means no.
June 26, 2016 8:05 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #13
DERPLINGSUPREME- I run mana myr in all of my decks. IRL my playgroup is such that you can get away with running some creature ramp. We aren't running optimized decks, but your deck definitely has to do something in a timely manner.
Mj3913- There were 4 total people in the game. I would also like to point out that 21 damage from Bruna is lethal damage so saying "25 isn't 40" isn't relevant.
It seems to be that I am just stuck being the bastard child of the EDH community. I don't play completely tuned decks but also don't enjoy multi-hour games where people are just building up armies and crashing them into each other. I intentionally leave glaring weaknesses in my decks so that a player with any sense can completely stop me, but run away with games if not stopped.
I really want to find a good descriptor for what I want to play so that all parties can go into the game knowing what to expect. I have no problems with infinite combos or one shot voltrons. I just don't want to play against guys who are running tuned top tier decks. I know I don't have a chance. I have been on both sides of a player having no chance before. It is no fun for anyone.
I may start posting games for "75% decks" even though I dislike the term. Too many people use that term too differently for it to have any true meaning. My decks do mostly adhere to Jason Alt's initial definition of the deck build part even though I do not adhere to his accompanying play strategy.
June 26, 2016 9:04 a.m.
NoNeedToBragoBoutIt says... #14
The weirdest thing i came across in similiar circumstances was a guy rage quitting on my Ezuri, Renegade Leader in a 4 player game.
He stated that full blown Elfball is broken, Ezuri "clearly Tier One" and "aggro quite possibly the most unfun way to play the game"... my deck doesn't have a cradle, no infinites and might be considered as a fairly well tuned casual deck that's still missing some updates.
He got me thinking about why he thought this way though. The conclusion i came to was, that people who don't invest as much time into research (and money into cards) will never have as streamlined decks as those who do. Therefor they'll always lack appropriate answers - in this case basically ANY creature removal or board wipe - will have easier to disrupt game plans and most essentially lack speed. That way a fine tuned <100 Elf deck will crush a random >300 shiny cards mix, anytime.
If they aren't aware of their own deck's strength they'll consider your head start unfair and broken. No matter if you run Elves, Voltron or Goblins and that's just part of these decks' DNA.
June 27, 2016 4:48 a.m.
Didgeridooda says... #15
I use budget, and my opponent's preferences on combo. Sometimes I ask if they play duals in their decks too. Those things help me know how a game will go. My price brackets are under 200, under 400, and everything after that I group together. It usually helps me figure out what sort of game someone is after.
5c eggy storm EDH was a dozy. Anything is possible especially on Untap where all cards are equally available to all. You just have to figure out how to communicate expectations. Even then not all people are enjoyable to play with. Make sure to use the friend list when you find a good opponent, and also the block list if things get bad.
June 27, 2016 1:39 p.m.
I wouldn't say you're assessing commander decks wrong, just different from your opponents. And they aren't assessing them wrong, just different from their opponents. This subjective assessment is dependent entirely upon the expectations of the assessor. The assessor's judgment is based up on his/her EDH experiences.
If he/she is used to playing against t1 Prossh, Jeleva, Narset decks than your Bruna list is a mild threat. If the assessor's experience is against general goodstuff lists and not combo-ridden or lousy with removal/countermagic then your Bruna deck is clearly OP.
June 29, 2016 12:54 p.m.
Dredge4life says... #17
@Deckologist I'm glad you understand what I go through every 2nd Saturday.
DERPLINGSUPREME says... #2
your bruna seems mild. not very threatening, but still god enough to do stuff.
that group is full of weaklings.
and might I ask why you were running Silver Myr?
June 25, 2016 10:27 p.m.