10 signs you're a good EDH player

LordBlackblade says... #2

Seems like a solid list. I agree with pretty much all of these. I find number two to be an especially good way to judge if you're doing things right or not, at least in a more relaxed setting. If people are clamouring to play with you, you must be doing something right.

December 18, 2019 3 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #3

I feel like nearly every player meets these criteria.

December 18, 2019 3:06 p.m.

king-saproling says... #4

@ZendikariWol you'd be surprised haha. But yeah part of the intent here is the say that there are many ways to be 'good' at EDH, and that the format is welcoming to many players and playstyles.

December 18, 2019 3:12 p.m.

Steelspike says... #5

I feel that being a good magic player and being good at magic are not synonymous.

You can be good at magic, but be a bad magic player. If nobody wants to play with you, you're a bad magic player.

December 18, 2019 3:47 p.m.

GhostChieftain says... #6

I agree for the most part. That being said, cEDH is a thing and #5 is something that those decks and players try to avoid to some extent. For the most part the more consistent your deck is, the more competitive it will be.

.#7 would also be potentially arguable, because efficiency strongly outweighs cool in a high powered game. Sure having 40 40/40 pegasi from Storm Herd + Cathars' Crusade is super sweet, but countering threats until you can Jace, Wielder of Mysteries into Demonic Consultation naming Jace, Wielder of Mysteries with counterspell backup is much faster and more efficient.

Those arguments are only okay in an environment where everyone is playing in the power level 9-10's competitive range though, and like you said in the #10 it needs to be discussed how the table is hoping to play beforehand.

Apart from those two, these are all important at all levels of commander.

December 18, 2019 5:03 p.m. Edited.

enpc says... #7

Vague list is vauge. I don't think this this is 10 signs you're good at EDH as much as it's "Are your a crappy human being or not?"

The list kind of boild down to three points:

Are you a complete and total tool of a human being to deal with? - This trancends MtG and while very important (in all aspects of life) is not linked with your ability to play a game.
Are you learning how to play the game better than you were? - I wouldn't say this makes you 'good' by definition, though it does mean you're improving and in the words of Homer Simpson: "That's Good" (though the frogurt is also cursed).
This one comes down to playstyle and is HUGELY subjective. Even across the whole power level spectrum, this is still subjective. If you're using words like 'interesting' or 'exciting' to describe what good is, then you're kind of missing the mark, sorry.

While EDH is a social format, it is important not to fall into the trap of assuming that the game you're playing has no relevance. If you just want to catch up, do that. But remember that if you're playing Magic, you're still there to play Magic.

December 18, 2019 6:50 p.m.

SynergyBuild says... #8

Self Evaluation with SynergyBuild:

You have fun playing - Check!
Others have fun playing with you - I'd imagine, if someone wasn't having fun they'd leave. Not sure why this'd matter though xD
You know the basic rules of MTG, or are learning them - Check!
You play cards that you like - I play cards that are good, for their budget, theme, or viability in a format, not cards I find particularly fun on their own. I like synergies and gameplay much more than whatever cards I am casting. No check.
Every match you play is unique - No, I've been in pods with people that have ended the same way with the same decks. No check.
You have a story about something funny/crazy/unexpected that happened in a game - Check, I have a million, but if I couldn't remember them I don't know why it'd matter so much as to make me a bad EDH player.
You aim to do cool/interesting/exciting things with your deck - I aim to play decks that let me have fun, often by being able to interact with my opponents on an axis they don't normally play on. I like having games where I change the rules and the opponents have to play a whole new game. No check.
You don't mind losing most games - I do mind losing most games. If I lose most games that seems to hurt a little xD. Are most people okay with losing most games?
You ask questions, and you ask to read cards that you don't remember or recognize - I don't ask often, I look cards up if I don't remember, and since I am a rules fanatic it is rare I forget many. No check.
You communicate with the other players beforehand about what kind of game you're hoping for (laid-back, cutthroat, or somewhere in between?) - I do this occasionally, but most people just know based on what we always play, or if it is online than it was normally asked for decks around a certain powerlevel.

Composite Score: 3-4/10

So does that make me a bad EDH player?

Nope, I could see someone getting a 0 and being a good player. They don't know the rules, and may be bad at learning them, they may have back to back similar games. They may play cards they don't like particularly, they may mind losing most of their games a little. They may not communicate power levels since they don't understand them. They may not aim to do specific things with their decks, they may not have played enough to have many memories, they may have some people that don't like playing against them, since they are new, they may not even have fun playing.

They could be a good friend of someone who plays the game, they pick up a precon, and didn't know even some of the basic rules. They may not intend to learn, but just to try to play for a quick and fun short little time against a friend who they want to cheer up. They aren't having fun playing specifically, but they care about their friend. They may only have one game, so it isn't unique, they don't know the game, so they don't communicate power levels, or know stories, or play cards they like. They may be a little upset when they lose. They are still playing the game, and they have a goal, and they are doing it for the good of their friend. They would be a great EDH player. Idc what you say.

December 18, 2019 11:58 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #9

Update: my first comment was a bit lukewarm so it’s time for me to make my opinion known:

The only ones of these that matter are the first two.

The rest feel like they were aimed directly at cEDH players to criticize them for “not playing the game right.” I hate cEDH as much as the next casual Johnny, but to tell them they’re not playing like you do is preposterous.

That said, I find that this list provides excellent criteria for the decks that I, myself, consider fun to play. Interactive, quirky, and sometimes (as often as I can justify) using pet cards that I like.

December 19, 2019 1:05 a.m.

ZendikariWol says... #10

Since I don’t know how to edit my comments:

“The first two” in stanza 1 refers to the first two criteria listed for good EDH players.

In the last sentence of stanza 2, what I meant to say was “I hate cEDH as much as the next casual Johnny, but to criticize others because they’re not playing like you do is preposterous.”

Thank you. If anyone knows how to edit comments, enlighten me. Please.

December 19, 2019 1:08 a.m.

StopShot says... #11

"8. You don't mind losing most games"

I disagree with this one. This presumes you always play with "good" EDH players who don't solitaire dead-lock games back-to-back or can make you auto-lose by turn 3 before the game can even stabilize. This is just one fringe group I've played with though as most EDH games aren't like this, but even so "You don't mind losing most games" should instead be "You maintain sportsmanship even if you lose a game."

Everyone minds about losing a game in some way is my point. It's what a game is, for someone to win and everyone to compete. Therefore to play is to mind about losing. Even when the game finishes I will enjoy the game, not give my opponents a bad time for it, but I will mind the game by taking mental notes on how plays were made, how my card choices worked out, how I might want to readjust the deck for next weekend, how I will readdress my political strategy in the next game out of good fun. To not mind about losing or winning is to play a game as if it doesn't matter to you almost as if you're forced to play when you'd rather not. It may also be to not care how your plays affect other people as well. If you're someone who lied about the power level of your deck and obliterated your opponents with little remorse, not being mindful of others can be pretty despicable. There's a good kind of mindfulness and a bad kind of mindfulness as well where one cares about the well-being of the play group, the other berates and insults the playgroup, and the lack of mindfulness is a complete disregard for whatever good or bad happens in a play group. To maintain excellent sportsmanship with the play group is the real hallmark of a good EDH player in my opinion.

December 19, 2019 7:50 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #12

I've never understood why casual players spend so much time shitting on competitive. Competitive players dislike mismatched pods with casual players just as much as casual players dislike mismatched pods with competitive players. Its important to foster the community and have fun. Taking constant pot shots at competitive players doesn't strengthen the community, the same as competitive players taking potshots at casual players doesn't strengthen the community. It just makes me feel frustrated before posting in threads.

Competitive players play competitive and casual. Casual players only have the skill set to play casual. To put it another way, I don't think many players are enfranchised enough with knowledge or the access to paper cards to give an opinion on cEDH from experience. Games are faster, interaction is higher, blowouts are bigger, and player skill is greater. Knowing that game-winning threats are going to happen fast and reliably causes pressure and excitement on the table. Its the same reason professional athletes enjoy playing in the top league more than playing a pick up game. It can still be fun to join a pick up game, but without the challenge a certain element is lost. I haven't ever seen anyone transition from cEDH back to casual entirely, although every cEDH player I know keeps casual decks on hand.

Have you played a competitive deck in a competitive pod on at least 3 occassions?
What is your opinion of cEDH?
Would you like a sub-forum inside the EDH forum for competitive threads/lists?

Questions open to any and all posters.

December 22, 2019 2:23 a.m.

StopShot says... #13

@dingusdingo, I've gone from kitchen table 60 card to competitive Modern to casual EDH to competitive EDH.

For me I would have been happy with casual EDH until I went to college. My new and only playgroup there consisted of people who generally were socially detached in some way and either had played the game long enough to have all the power cards or rich enough to acquire all the power cards.

cEDH I'm in a love-hate relationship with, because my opponents never felt guilty for playing heavy control, stax and prison decks where it would become a competition on how much we could possibly not play the game. As awful and dismal as the games were I chose not to walk away like any other casual player and instead made it a challenge to see how I could crack into this meta. I'm not rich though, so I built in arguably the cheapest three color combination I could , and after 2-ish years I was able to build a very reactive combo-kill deck that played very well in that environment.

It's at that point when I had gotten that far that my upperclassmen all graduated or transitioned out of my college and the younger classmen replaced them with casual stompy EDH decks. The issue is my deck started losing hard, because it was meant to thrive in an environment where the combat step practically didn't exist to begin with. My deck was fine-tuned to remove combo pieces, nasty stax/prison pieces, and force counter spells to get wasted with must-answer cards. The meta-shift has only further caused me to adapt the deck to be more flexible in both situations at the same time.

I've shifted play groups some more after that group as well, but still have the deck which is as good as ever. It's not meant to combo-win as fast as possible, just to effectively address all threats until it reaches that point. In my current play group they recently removed a budget cap to encourage players to build stronger decks some time right before I joined. Most games though I'm not even using up most of my removal just to last in the game, and I will often stumble upon my infinite combo too soon for their decks' speed. Given how my deck is built I'll just durdle for 20 turns only intervening if something awful gets headed my way, and then eventually make it appear as if I combo'd out when the game has gone long enough. Even though they're aware I'm playing with certain cards that are more expensive than their whole deck, my minimalist playstyle has been subtle enough not make things unfun for others but holding back all the time has almost become boring for me. It's like being locked down by the prison decks all over again, but instead its game-politics that are keeping me from doing much of anything.

I don't think I'll ever run into another cEDH play group ever again, but I'm not going to pull my deck a part because so much time, saved up money, and experience has gone into it. I try to encourage my current play group to play with proxy cards as I'd love to keep pushing my deck to the limit, but they treat that like it would be an ethical problem. I don't want to build a casual EDH deck either, because I'd want to hyper-fixate on polishing it and I just enjoy and feel comfortable putting all my thoughts and ideas into one deck rather than being forced to split it a part between two decks. Right now I guess you could say my deck's current big challenge is to find a way for it to be more politically pleasing while not sacrificing power level. To build one universal deck would be absolutely ideal for me.

December 22, 2019 8:21 a.m.

king-saproling says... #14

@ dingusdingo the idea that casual players are not as skilled as cEDH players is a misconception. Casual players are often just as skilled as cEDH players. They choose to play casual. When I started out I played cEDH (I came from a competitive standard environment) but now I play casual exclusively. cEDH became boring for me. Games were less distinct, and the pool of usable cards is much smaller than in casual EDH. That's just my experience of course.

I think it is telling that cEDH apologists often react to posts like the one above as if cEDH is being shat on. Where in the original post are pot shots being taken at cEDH? It seems cEDH apologists are the ones who propagate negativity around cEDH, not casual players.

December 23, 2019 8:30 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #15

Your list reads like a participation trophy for anyone with a pulse and a deck. I disregarded it as I do most things you post. No, having fun does not make you a good player (although its the most important part of playing a game), but I didn't want to nitpick semantics. Your list isn't going to actually help anyone improve or have more fun. Its validation for bad players to stay at the same skill level, and a way to spread your ideology that going fast is inherently bad in the format. Great contribution to the community mate.

I was more referring to "I hate cEDH as much as the next casual Johnny, but to tell them they’re not playing like you do is preposterous."

The fact you think I'm referring to your OP list speaks for itself. Its pretty much a complaint list against people you think play the format wrong, except using gold stars instead of red marks. You would read an identical list for competitive games as an attack on casual.

Just to reiterate - 100% of competitive players can play competitive and casual - Less than 100% of casual players can play competitive and casual

Congratulations on being the first competitive player I've met to revert to casual. Post a competitive list you used to pilot to qualify. Also, do you think competitive should have a sub-forum inside the regular EDH forum?

December 23, 2019 8:17 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #16

There’s a lot to unwrap here, dingusdingo. Lemme try.

1) you’re write. As I stated above, this list does apply to basically anyone. Maybe that’s because anyone who’s playing the game and enjoying it is playing it right? I doubt that was the author’s intent but either way there’s no need to be a dick about it.

2) you quoted me and... I’m not sure what you meant by it? I’d like to rectify my statement (as I did earlier, though you must have missed it). What I meant to say was that it’s not accurate and also awful to tell people that they’re playing the game wrong just because they play it differently from you. What I said up there doesn’t really make sense.

3) what’s your point here? As a casual player, I can confirm that I make a lot of misplays and I don’t build my decks optimally (and probably wouldn’t, even if I could afford to). So what? I don’t see how the skill of the player factors into any of this.

December 23, 2019 9:01 p.m.

dingusdingo says... #17

Alright doggie

1) Telling everyone they are a good player is, uh, not how qualifiers like "good" work. Its a comparison that only exists when there are bad players. Having fun and being a mechanically good player are two different things. Someone trying to become a mechanically better played has gained absolute 0 from reading this guys fucking blog post about what he thinks EDH should be

2) Sounds like we agree.

3) The point is that when I click a link that says "10 signs you're a good player", I'm expecting to see 10 qualities that separate a good player from a bad player. Instead, its a list that every single poster on this website qualifies for. Is every single poster on this website a good player? Have you even posted here? Most of these clowns couldn't find their way out of a paper bag.

As far as my less than tepid response, the guy shitposted at me when I wasn't even talking to him. I don't know what part of the internet you kids grew up on, but shitposters who waste my time with clickbait listicles receive shitposts in return.

I'm not surprised though. Its the same conversation day in day out about how competitive isn't fun, usually posted by someone who couldn't build a competitive deck if his life depended on it. Posting in this forum is a fucking charity case 99% of the time, and I honestly don't think I've learned a single thing since I started posting here. This entire website is filled with scrubs, and this place is trenched in the sweaty philosophy of staying mediocre forever. Trying to get actual feedback on a tuned list is damn near impossible.

Everyone with a brain reading this guys list will realize he contributed nothing of value, and he's shitting on anyone playing competitively. Any mods reading this, make a sub forum you lazy bastards. Until then, posting here is a practically a guaranteed waste of time.

December 24, 2019 2:24 a.m.

StopShot says... #18

To be honest, "good" is subjective, and trying to argue about what it is as if its a "factual" topic isn't going to get us anywhere.

Now look, we can all have our opinions or else what would be the point of discussing anything? king-saproling and dingusdingo obviously have different perceptions of what makes a good player to them and there's nothing wrong for either of them to think the way they do.

Discussions of course come with disagreements which are perfectly okay to have and are almost expected. How we disagree is the current problem on this thread. It's okay to be as passionate and opinionated as much as you want when talking about the subject matter, but as soon as you start making personal comments about any of the people who are posting here the discussion becomes toxic.

Here let me interject with a personal opinion of mine that is 100% objectively correct, not biased, the actual truth that no one can dispute, and that is you can not take a category of people and assign extra attributes to those people in order to expand the definition of what defines them. Or in other words, stereotyping is like a really bad thing, yeah?

Casual EDH players play casual EDH. cEDH players play cEDH. End of discussion - nothing more to it. Saying casual EDH players prefer mustard over ketchup can not be held in account for all casual EDH players. Saying cEDH players like horses over zebras can not be held in account for all cEDH players. And you definitely can't say one group is better or worse when it comes to A, B, C or D than the other group, because the moment you do the people posting in the discussion will start associating themselves with those labels.

It no longer becomes casual EDH players prefer mustard over ketchup, instead poster X will view that as poster X prefers mustard over ketchup. And poster X might say in response that cEDH players like horses over zebras, but poster Y will read that as poster Y likes horses over zebras. People have a natural tendency to want to fit into very broad groups and when we make broad generalizations about such groups it really doesn't take much for it to go from criticizing groups into personally attacking each other. Don't make over-reaching statements about what people in a group are like as it would be ridiculous to do so, and it would be just as ridiculous to angrily react over such statements when they're obviously opinions and not facts.

Casual EDH players play casual EDH. cEDH players play cEDH. You don't need any other qualifications to be a part of either group. If you don't like casual EDH that's fine. If you don't like cEDH that's fine. Hate the sin, not the sinner. You might hate or dislike a group because you have encountered people you didn't like in that group, but I'd be willing to bet if that person was in any other group and nothing else was different about them I doubt you'd like them anymore as a person than you did before. A group can only be defined by X many things where X is the number of things its members defines themselves as.

December 24, 2019 3:53 a.m.

king-saproling says... #19

My intent with the 10 signs (not a checklist for skill/success by any means) is to say that there are many ways to be "good" at EDH, that it is subjective. Having even one sign means you're good in some way. Definitely meant to be inviting, not divisive.

It seems elitism is on the rise in the community, which is sad considering the origins of the format. EDH was designed to be the one format where one could escape from the trappings of competitive tournament magic. But now we're asked to submit qualifications to prove we're good? Nah, we're all good in our own ways.

I've talked with people who love board games but avoid magic, and their reasoning is often that they perceive the magic community to be elitist. I think it would be great for more EDH players to be open to different interpretations of "good", so that new players aren't made to feel inferior, but also because this open-mindedness could lead to interesting deckbuilding.

December 24, 2019 8:44 a.m.

enpc says... #20

king-saproling: I think most of us understood what you were angling for here. But it's an incredibly subjective statement and what's more, it's not going to solve the issue you're talking about.

You don't need to be good at the game to be sociable or a nice person. And I think that's an even bigger point here that trying to construe that somehow being a decent human being (or at least not a tool of one) with that somehow being good at Magic is kind of silly. These things are not mutually exclusive and we shouldn't treat them as such.

As I said, I think most people get what you were going for but how you've presented it just feels like a roundabout way of calling the thread "PSA: Don't be a dick" but left yourself open to being misinterpreted more.

December 24, 2019 11:11 a.m.

king-saproling says... #21

enpc I think "PSA: Don't be a dick" is a completely different message. I'm saying "there are many ways to be a good EDH player", not "avoid certain behaviors".

You're right that I could have described my thoughts with more depth/specificity, but I actually like that the post was open to various interpretations. I think it elicits more insightful discussion this way.

December 24, 2019 11:21 a.m.

dingusdingo says... #22

So, what exactly was the point of this thread? You're all special you all get a gold star? Your digital hand holding isn't helping anyone. Anyone who needs to hear this is going to hear it from a friend in real life. Reading an affirmation of having fun on the internet, uh, is a gigantic waste of every single person's time. People come here to learn.

Also

"I can totally play competitive its just super boring" "Okay post a list" "UHH I DONT HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING I DONT HAVE TO PROVE MY QUALIFICATIONS"

Yeah mate, you definitely do. The word competitive implies gatekeeping from its very definition.

As far as competitive versus casual. You understand there is a skill barrier to competitive right? Anyone can learn, but not everyone has taken the time to. Its not a matter of preferring one or the other. Most casual players have not experienced a competitive game, and should honestly shut the fuck up about competitive. Their opinion comes from a lack of experience. Does this apply to every casual player? Of course not. I just don't believe anyone is qualified to speak on the subject until you've built a list that could sit at the table. From my anecdotal experience posting here for half a year, just a sliver of players have the game knowledge required. And here you are, keeping them as trenched in their ineptitude as before reading your list. Instead, you could give them the exact information they're seeking out to become better players. Awful idea, right?

What is the insightful discussion you're eliciting though? Who has learned anything from this thread? Anyone? Learned a valuable anything? At all? Anyone? Anyone gained any insight that they couldn't have figured out themselves with two minutes of quiet reflection? Feel free to @ me.

For fucks sake, the internet runs on content. Post something worth reading or stop posting. Tired of you clowns.

December 24, 2019 4:01 p.m.

LordBlackblade says... #23

king-saproling: I think enpc has the right of it here. Most people understand what you are trying to do here, you just kept things a little too nebulous. I get that you wanted things to be open ended; however, there is unfortunately a segment of the population on here who require you to be very specific in wording to avoid conflict/misinterpretation.

I think a better title for this going off of what you said would be something like, "Ten Tips for Enjoying Casual EDH." I personally agree with a lot of what you said, but I knew you were walking into a minefield just with the way this was titled/presented.

The general rules I've learned to go with on here is avoid hyperbole (not really an issue here) and be very, very specific (I think this is more the issue here). For good or for ill, that's just what this community has become.

December 24, 2019 6:14 p.m.

ZendikariWol says... #24

dingusdingo, hate to catch you so late, I’m just now reading all these comments.

1) This is an interesting pitfall you’ve thrown yourself into. You’ve confused the work “good” with “skilled.” The two are not synonymous. Skill is a measure of comparison. Good is a measure of morality that, myself, I would quantify as I have in the list I proposed elsewhere.

2) We do.

3) see #1

What I “grew up on” is the fact that when I lose my temper, they win. The obnoxious child who shitposts doesn’t deserve to be gratified by me wasting my time responding. I have nothing to prove to them.

And finally... yeah, you’re not likely to find many spikes here. They represent a smaller portion of the fanbase than it seems. That said, you know where you can find a disproportionately large amount of spikes? Your LGS.