Why does this deck suck?! RW Help EDH
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on May 4, 2016, 2:47 p.m. by zretrareo27
EDH Brion Stoutarm R/W, Fury and Wrath
This is my first EDH deck, and I am struggling with getting the premise to work.
Brion Stoutarm to Fling your opponents creatures with cards like Harness by Force, and if you're lucky - use Bazaar Trader to keep them! See the acquireboard for cards that will go in place of others.Your comments and suggestions are greatly appreciated. That being said, I will probably not be able to afford the more expensive cards Land Tax, Weathered Wayfarer etc. that are not already in this deck. If you like it, up vote!
Any ideas on why my consistency is so terrible? On the deck description it details what the cards do. The deck seems slow as well. How can I produce reliable red and white of either mana with out playing the 'comes into play tapped' lands?
Thanks in advance!
zretrareo27 says... #3
Thanks! I really appreciate your response, I am glad to learn I am not the only one struggling with non-ally RW.
May 4, 2016 5:30 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #4
RW is not just one of the weakest color combinations in commander, it is the weakest hands down. There is a lack of ramp and draw; and very narrow tutors (artifacts and enchantments are all you can tutor out).
EDHrec.com is a good place to find what is popular for a deck. What is popular may not always be what you want to do with the deck, but it shows you cards for consideration at the very least.
May 4, 2016 9:23 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #5
I actually have been using their site a lot, it has really helped me.
I have this hunch that they've been introducing RW angels to try and help RW EDH players.. lol.
May 4, 2016 10:08 p.m.
As the others have said, RW is a weak pairing in Commander. But! You wanted advice on improving this deck and saying "change commanders" isn't particularly useful for the deck you want to play.
Here's what I would do:
You're in poor colors for ramp, but you want to have ~something~ to speed your game plan. I saw you said you couldn't afford Land Tax (although you have a Plateau? Huh.) ...so here's a list of cards that are on the cheaper end. Colored mana ramp: Boros Signet, Boros Cluestone, Boros Keyrune. Land ramp: Expedition Map, Wayfarer's Bauble, Solemn Simulacrum. Colorless: You have no Sol Ring. Also, Mind Stone, Thran Dynamo.
Additional card draw will keep you from running out of gas. Unfortunately, you're in terrible colors for this as well. Red does have a number of looting effects, though (draw, then discard) which you can take advantage of to at least sculpt better hands. Here's a Gatherer link to what should be every looter or cycling effect at CMC 0-4 in your colors. Also, Browbeat is not the card draw you want. Five damage is something people will be entirely willing to take to prevent another player drawing 3, yet it's little enough that it doesn't represent a real threat either.
Your mana curve is really, really high - and this is made even worse by how little ramp you're running. I recommend trimming about half of all the cards you have at CMC 4 or higher in favor of CMC 1-3 cards. I'm not going to recommend exactly what to do here because we're talking something like 20 cards as you have 38 cards at CMC 4+. I think you'll find things going very differently when you build the deck to support and synergize with a small number of haymakers rather than trying to make so many.
Removal. Creature, artifact, and enchantment. You want more than you're currently running. In a scan of your list I could only find Purify, Wake of Destruction, Oblation, maaaaybe Ajani Vengeant, Weight of Conscience, Grasp of Fate, Banishing Light, Duergar Hedge-Mage. That's not a whole lot. Judging by your deck I'm going to assume you're in a "battlecruiser" meta. Everybody plays it slow for a few turns and then casts all their favorite fatties turn after turn and beats each other down. About right? If that's the case, then having choice removal for your opponent's big creatures will effectively give you free turns. Things like: Oblivion Ring, Stasis Snare, Swords to Plowshares, Chained to the Rocks, Journey to Nowhere, Suspension Field.
Whatever else you do, remove Wake of Destruction unless most of the people you play with are using either mono-color decks or a ton of basic lands of the same type. Against decks with even budget dual lands it becomes the most expensive Stone Rain ever. If you really want to get spicy with land destruction go in for Armageddon.
May 4, 2016 10:13 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #7
Thank you for the input!
"although you have a Plateau Huh." - I've had it for 11 years :)
Actually- every single person I play against, all 4 of them, rotate mono-colored decks... not sure why. But - you're correct, had I been playing otherwise it would be silly.
I am running Oblivion Ring already - and the reason I'm not running more creature removal is that for the most part, I am stealing the majority of anything scary that hits the field. With Brion Stoutarm's lifeline ability, if I get hit by a few 2/2's early on, I'm not tooooo worried. It's when it becomes a bunch of 2/2's that we get problems. Chained to the Rocks is a sweet card, but I obviously need my mana at this point until I get in some good mana.
Thank you so much for the link to gatherer - I am going to sift through it and see what I can sub in for Browbeat. I think much of my issue comes from playing legacy for so long. Fortunately, my play group does seem to not understand how important 3 cards are to RW and just don't take the damage. Bad strategy on their behalf. hah.
I forgot about Expedition Map - great card.
I sincerly appreciate your time for all the suggestions!
May 4, 2016 10:26 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #8
I think the most annoying thing about many of the card draw cards is the "at random" factor. I certainly don't want to discard something I'm going to be using, like Act of Treason. So frustrating for RW!
May 4, 2016 10:31 p.m.
When I quit back in '98 I gave away my multiple Taiga. I know...
Keep in mind with Chained to the Rocks that it doesn't remove your mountain, so it won't set you back anything other than the single 
to cast it - assuming you have a mountain in play.
The amount and type of removal you need is very meta dependent, so to an extent you may be right that I'm overestimating what is sufficient. That said, it's my experience that when people are new to Commander they often build with far too little removal. I know it took me several months to fully appreciate what a proper suite of removal can do in a game. The other common mistake is that, once people start to realize they need some removal, they go to the other end of the spectrum and basically only board in wraths.
You do probably want 1-2 wraths if you have them/can buy or trade but I'd include another 8-10 cards for spot removal. The type will depend on your playgroup but red and white do have great artifact and enchantment removal and a reasonable number of enchantment exile effects. Chain Reaction, Blasphemous Act and Vandalblast can work wonders in the right situation.
May 4, 2016 10:38 p.m.
Yeah, you don't want to go for the random discard. Faithless Looting is "good" as a looting effect while Desperate Ravings is not. Of course, ravings isn't even in your color identity but that type of loot isn't worth the risk.
Now that I'm thinking about it, since you want to Fling creatures all the time I highly recommend adding Skullclamp to your deck. Equip them, fling, profit. Mind's Eye is another way to get extra draws in.
May 4, 2016 10:43 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #11
"Keep in mind with Chained to the Rocks that it doesn't remove your mountain, so it won't set you back anything other than the single to cast it - assuming you have a mountain in play."
Ah, I did read that incorrectly. Sweet card. Perhaps I should ditch Karoo and Dormant Volcano for just standard Mountain and Plains?
I see Scrap, Clear, and Wipe Clean - do you think these would be utilized? And what would I take out in their place?
May 4, 2016 10:44 p.m.
Nah, those cycling removal spells aren't worth it. Cycling effects are good when you think you might flood out with a particular card type and even then only when the cycling cost is as low as possible. For example, Secluded Steppe can be playable but avoid Drifting Meadow.
I would ditch the bounce lands. If no one plays land destruction in your group then sometimes you might get away with Boros Garrison but it's always a risk. I'd probably just play more basics instead until (and if) you buy into a stronger manabase.
Austere Command is amazing if you can afford it. Return to Dust or Fate Forgotten are also nice because exiling shuts down graveyard tricks. Cleansing Meditation is risky for you unless you have threshold already because you have a number of value enchantments. Unless your group plays a lot of enchantments and artifacts that may be enough. The Vandalblast I mentioned before or Shattering Spree are top of the line vs. artifacts because they can hit as many targets as you need, making them political tools as well.
May 4, 2016 10:52 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #13
Can't afford that one yet. Vandalblast may be something I throw in. I just ordered Skullclamp and Chained to the Rocks (even if I don't use it, it's pretty awesome to have hah).
May 4, 2016 11:01 p.m.
Looking more closely now for cards I would remove...
Sunforger. You only run 4 instants, so this doesn't have good targets. The +4 is nice right before a fling but it feels like you're losing out on half the card's value.
Martyred Rusalka seems weak without some way to produce token spam or creature recursion loops.
Greater Gargadon doesn't seem worth the wait and it's definitely not worth 10 mana to hard cast.
And here are cards you might like to add, although I'm not accounting for CMC balancing or exactly what to swap out for them...
Molten Primordial. It's fairly big and it steals up to 3 creatures.
Stalking Vengeance. Double your fling damage.
Malignus. Half their life. One-shot someone if you have Stalking Vengeance out.
Feldon of the Third Path. Can create tokens to fling again. Low CMC, too.
Gift of Immortality. Fling, then at end of turn creature is ready to fling again. If you have ways of untapping Brion at instant speed you could chain this each turn.
Flameshadow Conjuring. Fling the token, keep the creature card in play.
May 4, 2016 11:08 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #15
Greater Gargadon - my thought here is that if for some reason I can't get my commander, I can use his sack ability to kill their creatures when I steal them. I will think about it. I would only play it for the suspend cost - it also might cause unneeded aggression towards me. lol. Perhaps I trade it for Steelshaper's Gift?Flameshadow Conjuring actually is pretty awesome. I may look into that one!Feldon of the Third Path is sweet as well.Excellent suggestions. I have much to think about!
May 4, 2016 11:16 p.m.
Try out some of these changes for a week or two and then post an update to the thread? The more changes I suggest at once the harder it'll be to tell which ones were good and which could be improved on, after all.
May 4, 2016 11:19 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #17
Certainly. I went ahead and ditched Karoo and Dormant Volcano for basic lands. The two cards I ordered should be here in a week. I have Hellkite Tyrant and Banishing Stroke on the way - I am not sure if I will play them or not. I will see what else I can come up with.
May 4, 2016 11:29 p.m.
I will take a more detailed look at your deck later, I don't have the time right now, but there are some great 
cards that you can add.
There are some of my favourites:
Awaken the Ancient gimme huge Creature for 4CMC
Fireball, Crater's Claws, Burn from Within and all excellent to finish an Opponent off or clear an annoying Creature out of the way
Anger of the Gods is a terrific Wrath. There are quite a few others in
Deflecting Palm BOOYAH!
Valorous Stance, Gods Willing, Ajani's Presence, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Pacifism, Darksteel Mutation (works well against a Commander), Erase, etc. So many cards that can help to protect your Creatures or shut down Opponent threats
May 5, 2016 12:20 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #19
Thanks, I feel like Awaken the Ancient is too red heavy to get played early on, but still awesome.
May 5, 2016 1:02 a.m.
Nobody said it had to be played early on.
That's the beauty of it.
If you have the early enough, you play it.
If you don't, you play it later and it's a freaking 7/7 with Haste.
May 5, 2016 3:22 a.m.
AliceInQuantumland says... #21
You should run more giants. Maybe you can switch some of your non-angel creatures with giants. It looks like if your deck relies too much on your opponents decks being fast. Plus Browbeat is a terrible card in EDH. I don't even run in in Nekusar.
May 5, 2016 7:29 a.m.
tensecondfriend says... #22
When playing Boros I find that the best way to make your deck more resilient is to concentrate on engines as opposed to singular cards.
Something like Feldon of the Third Path combined with Conquering Manticore in your graveyard, means you can continually steal an opponent's creature per turn cycle. If you have your commander out then you basically have a piece of repeatable removal. Adding more creature targets for Feldon obviously makes this even more reliable, so things like Molten Primordial and Zealous Conscripts become great redundancy.
In terms of draw, the most reliable way I have found to create card advantage in Boros is fetching lands with cards like Land Tax and Pilgrim's Eye and then pitching the excess to Daretti, Scrap Savant, Rummaging Goblin and Faithless Looting type effects. Mind's Eye is great, but also mana intensive. Trading Post and Goblin Welder become more powerful the more artifacts you use, though Trading Post can also do a decent impression as a sac outlet.
If you are looking to ramp quickly then you are going to be more reliant on artifact mana. I find that in Boros I concentrate more on playing on curve instead of trying to get ahead of it. This might be hard though with your current strategy, as it is quite reliant on higher CMC steal spells.
May 5, 2016 5:34 p.m.
Things that might help:
Your mana curve is huge. Mana rocks, Wayfarer's Bauble, and Burnished Hart will improve your consistency.
You have a few creatures in there that don't do much. Courier Hawk, Dawnglare Invoker, and Dragon Hatchling should all be replaced, in my opinion. Browbeat sucks for EDH. People start at 40; I would say "I take 5." before you finished casting it. Some of your creatures don't do much. Small dudes like Lone Missionary, Bastion Protector, and Magus of the Wheel will serve you better.
I like equipment for this deck. I suggest you add more. Like Grafted Exoskeleton(!), Nim Deathmantle, and Loxodon Warhammer.
Board wipes. Rout, Catastrophe, Earthquake, and Fault Line are my personal favourites.
May 6, 2016 12:20 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #24
Skullclamp and Chained to the Rocks are coming in the mail. Going to order Deathrender.
I added in Steelshaper's Gift, Magus of the Wheel, and Priest of Iroas -- all cards I had on hand, and removed Dragon Hatchling , Browbeat , and Herald of the Host.
My goal is to get and place the following Keening Apparition, Reckless Reveler, Kami of Ancient Law, & Hearth Kami.
May consider Nim Deathmantle - not sure yet.
Then I'll still need to work on card draw, early game defense, and board wipes.
May 6, 2016 2:11 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #25
Banishing Stroke is it worth it? - Also, what should I remove for it?
May 6, 2016 2:03 p.m.
It's pretty decent if you can cast it for the miracle cost, otherwise it's awful and worth replacing. You don't have hand manipulation (things like Brainstorm) but you also don't have a ton of card draw so your first draw tends to be your only one each turn.
May 6, 2016 2:50 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #27
The few changes I made so far seem to be doing okay. I still def need to work on the mana ramping - I seem to stall out after I get four mana for a little while, then get stuck at 6 mana for a while. Very strange. Can't seem to get a good balance.
May 7, 2016 12:12 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #28
I ordered Malignus and Gift of Immortality. I did 30 damage in 1 turn with just Brion and someone's 15/15 creature at tonights mtg games, I think I can get used to this.
May 7, 2016 12:34 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #29
You have too few lands for not having any mana rocks. I think the solution is actually more rocks, not more lands. I personally like starting with 40 lands and dropping one for every two rocks as a base point. If you find this ends up giving you too much mana you can always drop cards later. Without further ado here is a list of mana rocks at or under 
and $5 that are legal in your deck.
As you can see I went with creating a comprehensive list instead of picking which ones are playable. In addition to these there are a few more cards that have to do with creating mana that are't strictly mana rocks you may want to think about. The first two are the mana producing altars Ashnod's Altar and Phyrexian Altar. They provide a sacrifice outlet and allow you to turn your opponent's creatures that you have stolen into mana for casting your own spells. Ventifact Bottle allows you to have a big turn by tapping down any unused lands and transferring that mana to your next turn. Basalt Monolith does something along the same lines. It can only "store" exactly 3 mana, but can be use once after casting without further investment; does not "lose" any mana, and keeps the mana stored over multiple turns. Admittedly the last two cards I mentioned aren't very good, but they are interesting.
May 7, 2016 1:10 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #30
Much appreciated. Those altars are sweet. I actually began with 40 lands, it was insane and it felt like all I would get is land. However, I suppose it wouldn't feel to clunky to get some artifacts in there. I like the Basalt Monolith as well. Very interesting. I have a lot to look through. Perhaps I will work on getting at least two of those into there.
May 7, 2016 1:21 a.m.
Hi!
This is your first EDH deck, right? I remember my first EDH deck. There is some good advice in the upper posts regarding your deck (specifically). On that note, I'll add Allay or possibly Disenchant. Something along those lines. If your deck revolves around your commander, then your opponents will shut down your commander. Every player in my group who runs white always main-decks an Arrest. Since you have little-to-no enchantment removal (which is a specialty in white), you'll tend to see your commander get shut down pretty quickly.
May 7, 2016 2:34 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #32
I would consider finding room for at the very least Sol Ring, Boros Signet, Mind Stone, and Boros Cluestone. Four rocks would mean you see them more often and it would really help with you feeling you are getting stuck at certain mana levels. As a side note T1 Sol Ring into a signet into 5 mana turn 2 is a great feeling when it happens.
May 7, 2016 3:30 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #33
Calivess - yep, first one. Heh. I am adding in the following when they arrive via mail.
I also have Duergar Hedge-Mage.
Do you think I need more than that? Most of my other removal can basically Oblivion Ring anything - enchantments, artifacts, creatures, plains walkers, etc. In order to fit those creatures in though, I do have to remove Purify which I guess is okay because I do have quite a few artifacts and enchantments that I don't want to destroy of my own.
May 7, 2016 11:46 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #34
Gidgetimer -When I make the following substitutions I am going to work on a minimum of two mana rocks, one of which being Sol Ring (perhaps the other being cluestone).
Malignus replaces Nobilis of War.
Yosei, the Morning Star replaces Herald of War.
Kami of Ancient Law replaces Courier Hawk.
Keening Apparition replaces Dawnglare Invoker.
Reckless Reveler replaces Emeria Angel.
Hearth Kami replaces Stinkdrinker Daredevil.
Chained to the Rocks replaces Weight of Conscience.
Skullclamp replaces Purify.
Deathrender replaces Glory of Warfare.
Nim Deathmantle replaces Greater Gargadon.
Then I am unsure of the following:
Banishing Stroke or Angelic Purge or Arrest replaces Recumbent Bliss.
Also - is Razia, Boros Archangel too high of a drop and too little of a thrower for this deck? She doesn't seem to fit the theme very well, but she is pretty awesome.
May 7, 2016 11:59 a.m.
zretrareo27 says... #35
I hadn't previously stated it, but I really want to keep the deck as close as possible to 50% white and 50% red.
May 7, 2016 12:23 p.m.
Gidgetimer says... #36
Razia is a cool card, but she doesn't really fit into this specific deck. in this deck you are more focussed on stealing creatures and flinging them. In something like Gisela, Blade of Goldnight she is much stronger. While I am thinking about damage doublers have you considered things like Furnace of Rath and Dictate of the Twin Gods? I personally would find it hilarious to swing Malignus at one opponent and then Fling him at another to eliminate both players.
May 7, 2016 1:34 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #37
Yeah, I feel like I don't have enough strong defenders to run cards like Furnace of Rath that apply to not only opponents but to myself. I did swap Razia, Boros Archangel for Spark Trooper, fits better. Yeah, I finished off the last 3v3 game we played with smacking both my opponents down to 1 health the at the same time - needless to say they were not happy with me. Hah. The changes I have made have been lucrative, but some of it has still been me lucking out while my opponents get either mana screwed or mana flooded.
May 7, 2016 2:36 p.m.
Your deck should work if you address the R/W weaknesses of card draw/card advantage and ramp.
Some cards I have not seen mentioned above (I skimmed, so it's possible they were mentioned): Myriad Landscape is a colorless cultivate, Sword of the Animist and Explorer's Scope are great if you get them on cheap creatures early, Jar of Eyeballs and Inheritance synergize a little with Brion, you can use Sun Titan to retrieve a used Myriad Landscape or Armillary Sphere, or a Burnished Hart or Pilgrim's Eye that you sacrificed to Brion.
May 8, 2016 2:44 p.m.
I didn't see Stormbreath Dragon mentioned anywhere.
It's a great Creature.
Particularly if you get to that situation where people have heaps of cards in hand and you make it Monstrous.
May 8, 2016 5:06 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #40
Great suggestions. I think Inheritance may be a good fit, as well as Myriad Landscape or Burnished Hart.Until I get the cards in the mail and can recalculate my mana types,
I am going to hold off on Stormbreath Dragon - need to veer more white to stay balanced right now - but I will take a good relook at what I can do for removal of hordes.
May 9, 2016 12:50 p.m.
Inheritance is a bit of mana pig, but in R/W you take what you can get for drawing cards.
May 9, 2016 2:33 p.m.
zretrareo27 says... #42
I made quite a few changes. Still waiting on a few cards to arrive. Should I remove Basandra, Battle Seraph for Hoarding Dragon since I am playing with more artifacts now? I love Basandra but I don't know if she will be a good fit or not.
Deathrender will be replacing Glory of Warfare when it arrives.I was also toying with the idea of Avarice Amulet for card draw, maybe equip to Brion or something else.
TripleResistance says... #2
Draw is one way to make a deck more consistent, but RW doesn't do much of that. It is for that single reason that RW is considered one of the worst color combinations in EDH. As for the lands, many cheap ($) lands are available that do both colors, but they do come in tapped. Sometimes you have to find a balance between speed and consistency.
One way to make the deck faster is to give your commander infect. Infect works when the creature deals damage, not just in combat. If it says "[name of this card] deals damage," then infect works.
I do like the Act of Treason plan, it's really nice for getting rid of indestructible and for dealing with "when this creature dies" type effects.
I would add some untap effects, so you could use your commander's ability multiple times per turn.
You could try a control deck that sacks opponents' stuff and uses the life gain and some extra support to find enough time to combo off later on in the game. That'd be hard in RW though.
I would probably have to consult other decks with that commander to really give you a solid recommendation, but these are some ideas you could play around with. I recommend you look around at other decks for ideas on solving your problems. Have fun!
May 4, 2016 4:30 p.m.