Solutions For Nonbasic Hate

Commander Deck Help forum

Posted on July 13, 2017, 5:32 a.m. by Winterblast

I play a 5 colour combo deck (Combo Queen, but I think I have maybe 3-5 different cards in my real deck) and of course the biggest problem is to run into Blood Moon, Magus of the Moon and Back to Basics. I'm not talking about the possibility of Ruination because I have no response to that anyway and will have to prevent it with Gaddock Teeg.

My question is, what are the best ways to get rid of a Blood Moon when there's only red mana available and maybe one different colour from a mana dork?

What I already play is Chromatic Lantern (not tutorable with red), Vizier of the Menagerie, Birthing Pod (to search for vizier, Reclamation Sage, Harmonic Sliver)

Another method, although complicated, would be to use Imperial Recruiter to get Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, copy recruiter to find Elvish Spirit Guide and again to search for Reclamation Sage. That's the only other way I can imagine that would work without any other colour than red, but it takes multiple turns.

Do you know anything else that could work? Maybe something with alternative casting costs for removing enchantments? A cheap red creature that can kill a Magus when it comes into play ( Flametongue Kavu is a bit expensive for 3R and the recruiter can't get it)?

Often I have something to respond or at least one basic forest or mana dork to work with, but I don't want to have absolutely NO (tutorable or otherwise realistic) solution to a blood moon if it happens to catch me tapped out with only nonbasics on the board. Any help is appreciated!

DarkLaw says... #2

I mean, as always, it depends on your playgroup. You could just run more non-nonbasic mana fixing. Armillary Sphere, your aforementioned Chromatic Lantern, ramp like Cultivate and Kodama's Reach, etc. For specifically Blood Moon-esque cards, you can play Prismatic Omen after it resolves because the card played latest overrides any previously played contradicting card - though I'm not a fan of this plan because it does literal nothing other than fix your mana.

There's also other alternatives regarding deck construction. People hate playing basics for some reason, but it's actually fine to play a decent amount of them, even in five-color. That's the easiest and most foolproof solution, at the cost of a marginal increase in inconsistency (often irrelevant with other fixing I mentioned earlier). If you insist upon playing almost entirely nonbasics, your alternatives mostly boil down to more mana rocks or more colorless cards.

July 13, 2017 6:15 a.m.

DarkLaw says... #3

Oh yeah, and Reverent Silence may be a card that you are looking for. There's also Chaos Warp. What are the odds that they'll hit a relevant permanent?

July 13, 2017 6:30 a.m.

Winterblast says... #4

Yeah DarkLaw, I do know it's a problem to have almost no basics and that's why I went from having ALL fetchlands, ALL duals and ALL shocklands (like our hermit druid player has) to playing only all duals plus the shocklands with green included, so I get space for 3 forests and one plains. I do fetch for basics if the opening hand permits, but I rather go for consitency than for a blood moon proof board.

Yesterday I had some bad luck I guess because I played two games against mono R and mono U and in the first game I had to fight Magus of the Moon (I managed to win on turn 4 or 5 then because I topdecked a plains for Path to Exile) and the second game was lost because both Blood Moon and Back to Basics showed up and my Noble Hierarch was killed. What irritated me in the second game was that I couldn't solve the problem even though I had a Recruiter of the Guard in my hand and Survival of the Fittest on the board.

Chaos warp would help in an only red mana scenario, it's pretty bad in any other situation though when I could use all my 5 colours. If I run into the blood moon Problem too often, I might consider it...but it's just an additional removal and I can't search for it with any of the already included mechanics :(

Reverent Silence needs a forest in play and it's sorcery speed. Without a Basic forest I won't have any forest at all under a blood moon It's a solution for back to basics though! That's worth a try

What do you think of Abolish, Cryptolith Rite and Land Grant? The first doesn't check for lands on the table (but it might be unlikely to have a plains dual land in hand), the second works but only by making every creature into a mana dork and the third could be a colour fixer under normal circumstances and search for a basic forest when fetchlands are shut down...not sure if one is worth a slot though, I've even cut Cryptolith Rite last week because it felt slow.

July 13, 2017 8:01 a.m.

jon_hill987 says... #5

To me the obvious thing to do is to add some of the 5 colour mana rocks, will help you with ramp and colour fixing as well.

July 13, 2017 9:19 a.m.

NoSoyYucateco says... #6

Disrupting Shoal and Lotus Cobra both seem like cards that would be welcome in your deck in any scenario, and could help with this problem.

July 13, 2017 9:46 a.m.

Winterblast says... #7

jon_hill987 which ones do you mean? I think I only miss Mox Diamond and Mox Opal...Opal has too few artifacts in the deck and I don't have a Diamond left. Well, maybe I could take it from another deck, but I think I have too few lands to play mox Diamond over something else here. Anything else costs 2 or more mana and therefore is too slow...did I miss a card?

NoSoyYucateco the shoal won't work with only 5 blue Cards with cmc 3 in the deck. how much are the chances that I have shoal and one of These 5 Cards in my Hand at a time when blood moon is cast AND I don't Need that blue Card to win? With so much luck I would rather have the mana open for an instant Abrupt Decay or Nature's Claim. Lotus cobra could work with the fetchlands but it does nothing without constant land Drops

July 13, 2017 10:18 a.m.

jon_hill987 says... #8

Well I have the following in my 5 colour EDH deck:

Chromatic Lantern

Coalition Relic

Commander's Sphere

Darksteel Ingot

Fellwar Stone

Lotus Petal

Manalith

Vessel of Endless Rest

There are a couple more as well, I had a look at your deck and only saw the Lotus Petal?

July 13, 2017 10:25 a.m.

jon_hill987 says... #9

The full list would be here:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=+[add]+[any]+[color]&type=+[%22Artifact%22]

Some are better than others of course.

July 13, 2017 10:32 a.m.

jon_hill987 says... #10

Just noticed you said 2 or three CMC is too slow? Any reason for that? Whenever I play EDH games seem slow enough that this would not be a problem, and late is better than never thanks to Blood Moon shenanigans.

July 13, 2017 11:02 a.m.

Winterblast says... #11

jon_hill987, this deck aims at a turn 3-5 kill (with a lucky hand and flash/hulk + tutor even turn 2), so a mana rock for 2 or more mana really has to do A LOT, to justify a slot in the deck. For there's only the three moxes and lotus petal, of which only mox diamond could be added (but I have some concerns as for the consistency with my land Count). for cmc 1 there's only creatures that produce coloured mana, no artifacts. for cmc 2 it needs to be a Card that generates a lot of value like maybe Bloom Tender or the mana slivers (because they can act as removal with Harmonic Sliver as well). Chromatic Lantern is only an option because it doesn't just create one mana of my choice, but makes ALL lands produce all colours regardless of their land type being changed. everything else with 3 mana is simply too slow in here...I do like coalition relic, but only in control decks when I don't plan on going for the win so early.

July 13, 2017 11:07 a.m.

MindAblaze says... #12

I personally love Cryptolith Rite, but I play it in Prossh so I often have lots of little dudelies.

July 13, 2017 12:20 p.m.

Razulghul says... #13

Hmm well there is 3 options I'd consider, trade out Vindicate for Engineered Explosives, Abrupt Decay for Pernicious Deed and possibly a forest for Ghost Quarter. Hopefully being able to wrath for 3 can get you out of a bind and trading two lands for a basic may save you the game.

July 13, 2017 1:44 p.m.

DarkLaw says... #14

Winterblast Reverent Silence would be useful in the instance you control a basic forest. Of course, under a total lock, that wouldn't work. Other than the solutions mentioned in this thread (and cheap targeted discard, I suppose, which feels horrible to play in commander, or maybe actually good free counterspells like Daze and FoW, which likewise feel horrible to play) there isn't a lot you can do. In all fairness, you aren't supposed to be able to make a comeback from that kind of situation. The whole point of Blood Moon-esque cards is to punish players who greedily play many colors with only nonbasic fixing. At best, the most you can really hope for is that you are slowed by a turn or two by destroying whatever is locking you out. Or sacrificing some consistency to be more resilient to those kinds of cards.

July 13, 2017 1:49 p.m.

Razulghul says... #15

Actually Ash Barrens might be better than Ghost Quarter after giving it some thought. Not sure, anyways hope it helps

July 13, 2017 2:08 p.m.

Wurmlover says... #16

play 1 color.

July 13, 2017 4:43 p.m.

enpc says... #17

You can use cards like Seal of Primordium which you play proactively and have sit there specifically for Choke, Blood Moon, etc. You can also use Chaos Warp (as previously mentioned) which doesn't care about Blood Moon.

other than that, your best option is to just run a defensive counterspell suite. Cards like Swan Song, Spell Pierce, Pact of Negation, Force of Will, etc which are either very easy to cast, or free.

Another option would be to use Sneak Attack (which can be played through a Blood Moon) to cheat in cards like Reclamation Sage or your Manglehorn (though it can't hit enchantments).

July 13, 2017 7:11 p.m.

Winterblast says... #18

enpc I've already thought about sneak attack yesterday...that's an interesting idea, also because it could bring creatures into the graveyard that I'm currently not able to cast and it could be used to get creatures to die and trigger certain abilities (for example Protean Hulk could tutor up the whole aluren combo in the end step then). I don't have much red without blood moon thoughI play the mountain duals primarily for Anger and Wheel of Fortune but I often fetch for non-mountain duals

Unfortunately I have absolutely no space for counterspells and additional removals are also problematic. For counters I am too active, I can't just save mana for that and the free Counters have conditions I am unlikely to meet in this deck (for example additional blue cards to remove, taking back an Island for Daze, ...). I need to use stuff that is not just a response to a problem but also works towards my own goal. So, rather Sneak attack than additional removal :)

dlamars I don't get how I could play engineered explosives with blood moon...of course, I could play it anytime for 3 just in case a blood moon drops later, is that what you mean? I have both EE and pernicious deed, but I think deed would ruin too much of my own important cards. EE for 3 is probably a safe play at any time, it just doesn't work when I get reduced to red mana before I get EE.

MindAblaze I have quite a few little hatebears, so it would work. I'm still trying to find out which cards are the least important in the deck and what I could remove again for more resiliance against nonbasic hate. Most of the deck is fixed because of the Combos and necessary interactions, it's a total of maybe 10 cards, including lands that can be exchanged...for example one recruiter or both? How many and which big reanimate targets? number of lands 30-33? number of mana dorks? how many and which hatebears? Birthing Pod/Sneak Attack/Defense of the Heart yes or no and how important are they? That's a lot of decisions on only few slots but I've already got some good suggestions from this thread!

Does anyone have experience with Carpet of Flowers? Is it good enough to risk having a dead card when absolutely no one lays blue and how realistic is it that there's no Islands in play at all?

July 14, 2017 5:07 a.m.

Razulghul says... #19

Winterblast Yeah, I was saying that you could play the EE at 3 counters probably on turn 2 with your deck. The deed and EE also have a significant psychological effect on your opponents. In my experience it makes people pump the breaks and hold threats until they can bait you out. That's primarily why I think it's a good change from Abrupt Decay and Vindicate, mono red/blue have limited recursion so they may not even play the cards you listed as long as they remain on the field.

TL:DR- EE helps you about as much as Vindicate does after Blood Moon is out, but it's an upgrade imo since you can play it early as a deterrent. Same reason for deed over decay.

July 14, 2017 1:41 p.m.

bushido_man96 says... #20

Aura Shards might be of help. Paradise Mantle is a mana-producing equipment that I never see mentioned, and might help you here.

Really, though, perhaps you should cut the number of combos you have to focus on just a few, and then you can work in more options to combat the meta you have to face. You might have to run more basic lands. I saw you only run 31, and that seems really low, but I don't play the deck, so don't know.

I can understand wanting to win by turn 3 or 4, but, its Commander, and its supposed to be casual and fun, right?

July 17, 2017 5:20 p.m.

enpc says... #21

bushido_man96: If this is Winterblast's interpretation of fun and their play group is ok with it (or have similar decks) then what's the problem? Just because it's a different version of fun doesn't make it less valid.

And commander is a social format meaning that it focuses on the attitude, not the deck construction. Plus amazingly enough, people can all have fun playing both with and against fast combo decks.

July 17, 2017 6:14 p.m.

bushido_man96 says... #22

I don't disagree with you, enpc. It ins't a problem, really, there's just so much more out there than the turn 3 kill. Yes, it is a social setting, and I would call it a more casual format, too. But, I understand that there are the spikes out there who enjoy the game if they can decimate someone early, and that's cool if you are in a playgroup like that, and have the budget for those kinds of things.

Then there is the meta, and apparently, his playgroup likes to slow down those turn 3 wins by running hosers like Blood Moon and Magus of the Moon. So, you have to adjust to the meta, which means perhaps running a deck that is a touch less powerful. Or that appears to be less powerful, but allows you to win when you want to.

I don't mean any offense when I make that comment. None at all. When I think of playing Magic, I think of group games that involve lots of socializing and that build for a bit before someone goes off, but that's just me, and I know I'm not the only guy that plays Magic, so my opinion isn't really worth anything, other than some consideration.

I've only played very little competitive Magic, but have played tons of casual constructed in large groups. My funds are also very limited, so I have to build my decks accordingly, and fortunately have some good cards from years ago when I bought boxes and packs. So when I make a comment like that, that's just where I'm coming from. I'm not ragging on a guy for building a turn 3 win deck. I really think its cool, and wish I could do it.

Now, with all that said, it sounds to me like what Winterblast needs is to put together another deck, mono or two-colored, and make it just as powerful in a different way, so that Blood Moon and company don't hose it as bad. Adjust to the meta, and if they don't know which deck your playing, they can't hose you quite as bad.

July 17, 2017 9:29 p.m.

Winterblast says... #23

bushido_man96 I get where you are coming from and under other circumstances your suggestions do make much sense. It's not that I rely on this one 5 colour deck for all my games in the same playgroup though. We all have some decks to change and the matchup multicolour against mono seems to be particularly bad, so I wanted to find ways to improve that. The "trick" with trying to build something that appears weaker than it is doesn't really work imo. Usually I try to kill the player first, who is easiest to remove in the early game, because he might play something that is hard to remove later in the game. It depends on the commander and if I know the deck and player, but doing unsuspiscious stuff in the beginning often means that the real action comes afterwards.

If I don't want to worry about blood moon at all, I can always play one of my other decks...I have one for every colour, Rhonas, Purphoros, Xiahou Dun, Jhoira (90% blue), Brimaz, my best deck is probably UW Stax and I have a Gitrog Monster. During one evening I don't play all decks, usually I play a deck until I have won once or twice, then take another one. Last week I happened to run into mono R and mono U with the 5 colour combo and the games showed some flaws in my deck. I managed to get rid of a Magus because I topdecked the single basic plains in the deck and hand a Path already available but I wasn't able to remove a blood moon even though I had a recruiter and Kiki Jiki...if that doesn't work, there's clearly something missing in the deck.

I do quite well with the 31 lands because there are mana dorks and some artifacts. I'm always somewhere between 30 and 33 and the amount of mana usually isn't the problem...with one free mulligan there's a good chance of getting what you need. The choice of lands is imporant though. I've removed Volcanic Island for an additional basic forest because I rarely need the combination UR. I tried removing Anger now because that was my main reason for playing duals with red but without green...and Anger was mostly needed for a trick with Master of Cruelties/Volrath's Shapeshifter and I kicked that combo out. The importance of Badlands still needs to be checked. I do want to keep the shocklands with green though, because green is my main colour.

What makes it difficult to cut something is that all the combo parts interact with something else and it's hard to find out what can absolutely not be thrown out and what is just a nice gimmick but not essential. Volrath's Shapeshifter and Defense of the Heart for example look great but I am not sure how much they really do in the current build. Defense can win the game if it triggers, but the requirement of 3 opponent creatures might be hard to meet by the time I could win with something else.

I'm testing Flametongue Kavu now, maybe Ghitu Slinger and I have Birthing Pod and Reclamation Sage in the deck again. We are opening some HOU displays tomorrow and I hope to get a Razaketh. Jin Gitaxias has also arrived yesterday, so I'm going to test him too as one of the reanimation targets. Cryptolith Rite might replace another land, because it makes all creatures into mana dorks...with all that specualtion and your inputs I think I should rather test some chances and see how it works in practice. I don't have a Sneak Attack but this and the EE dlamars suggested are on my watchlist. I'm still in favour of instant/sorcery removals (besides creatures with built-in removals) because Snapcaster Mage can reuse them and I've got nothing to make artifacts searchable or reusable.

July 18, 2017 4:54 a.m.

bushido_man96 says... #24

I think with running 5 color, you should maybe look into some counters possibly? I also think there are some cards that let you search a player's library and remove cards, but the name doesn't come to mind. Something like that might also be helpful. In red, you could run a Chaos Warp perhaps.

July 18, 2017 10:22 p.m.

Winterblast says... #25

bushido_man96 unfortunately counters are too reactive for this deck...I can't really hold back to save mana for a counter because there's very little that I would actually like to counter. And the "free" Counters like FoW and Pact or mental misstep, daze...they have requirements that either don't hit the most problematic spells or they have alternative costs that I can't reliably pay. I'll test the deck again tonight and then I see how bad the matchup with the changes I've made really is against mono R and mono U. Apart from blood moon and Magus red can't really do much against my gameplan, unless there's Torpor Orb and Grafdigger's Cage and there's nothing to Tutor for These Cards. I'd like to be prepared for the possible Situation but not lose too much power against other decks because I improved a matchup that was already in my favour.

July 19, 2017 3:14 a.m.

bushido_man96 says... #26

It sounds like you've got quite the task ahead of you, and your playing a much tighter deck than any I have, so kudos to you for the build. Best of luck, and keep us posted!

July 19, 2017 6:35 a.m.

DarkLaw says... #27

My last suggestion I have at this point which could be bad depending on how many players there are per game is that you look into things like Cabal Therapy, Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, and maybe Unmask or Hymn to Tourach. The theory being, they aren't just dead in some matchups and are fairly versatile. You can check to see if the coast is clear, remove hate pieces, etc. The problem is that you can only target one player, so you might still need a little luck. They're all pretty cheap too.

July 19, 2017 7:29 a.m.

Skinny4546 says... #28

If ruination type cards are a problem try sacred ground.

July 25, 2017 8:10 p.m.

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