So which is it? Bant Esper or Sultai?
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on April 15, 2016, 11:44 a.m. by Deckologist
Give me your argument for which of these color combinations is the best for control.
I personally believe it's Esper due to its wide variety of answers. It gives you tutor and draw power as well as the bulk of sweeper effect. Of course with blue you get counters draw and a host of unfair advantage cards. Most esper generals are designed for some kind of control aspect or a way to just gain advantage. The one thing it's lacking is land ramp. Sure with blue and whites love of artifacts you can easily out ramp most decks but all it takes is a well timed artifact sweeper or Stony Silence to ruin your day. I believe this is counteracted by well timed plays though.
So what do you all think?
PistonGolem says... #3
I agree with Gidgetimer. You get blue counterspells, black kill spells, and white removal/exile.
April 15, 2016 12:25 p.m.
Personally, I would say sultai is the best. The thing that sultai gives over esper is that you have access to consitent ramp and generally your win condition is faster to get to. Because while controlling the boardstate is one thing, actually ending the game is another.
And while bant has ramp, it lacks tutors meaning it has to rely on heavily on just card draw.
April 15, 2016 9:16 p.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #5
Sultai and Bant both gain ramp, but control is not the same as ramp, and ramp is not an integral part of control. Green does not offer much for a control player when compared to the exile effects white brings (that Sultai lacks), and the kill spells black brings (which Bant lacks). Esper is the most powerful control colorset, no question.
April 15, 2016 11 p.m.
Absolutely Sultai. White is somewhat redundant. Dropping it for green grants a whole new level of power.
Of the four Tier 1 hard control commanders, two of them are in Sultai (Tasigur and Damia). Zero of them are in Bant or Esper colors.
April 16, 2016 12:08 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic: You can't just look at one aspect here though. Control with no wincon will eventually fall over because you can only run so much of it. The problem that so many control decks run into is that while they can shut down, they can't close, meaning inevitably they lose because at some point they lose their grip on the game.
So while ramp isn't specifically control no, it is an important factor. Not to mention green actually has some of the best non creature removal in the game.
April 16, 2016 1:32 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #8
NarejED: first, if you don't consider Oloro, Ageless Ascetic to be a tier one control commander, there's something wrong. Second, "number of control commanders" doesn't correlate to "power of those colors."
enpc: I don't understand why you think I need green to have a wincon. The point of control is to slow the opponent until I get my wincon online. My point is that green doesn't add to control's game plan, all it does is try to accelerate control to make up for not being able to control as well. A perfectly viable strategy, but not one that can qualify those colors as the best for control.
Also, although green does run the best artifact/enchantment hate, white has its fair share of noncreature removal, and green sorely lacks board wipe power to compensate. Of the four widely played 4-CMC board wipes, three are white, one is black, and one is blue. Green has Whirlwind, and that's not enough. At the 5-CMC level, white gets FIVE more board wipes, and black gets another one. Green gets nothing.
April 16, 2016 8:32 a.m.
AliceInQuantumland says... #9
For control the best one is Esper, because then you can have the Sen Triplets as you commander.
April 17, 2016 7:13 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic: slowing your opponent down generally works in one-on-one. when you're trying to slow down 3 other players, speed is crucial. Not to mention you will not be able to shut down 100% of what they're doing.
And yes, green lacks non-creature board wipes, however black/blue more than makes up for that with Damnation, Toxic Deluge, Cyclonic Rift, Black Sun's Zenith, etc..
If you're wanting to talk about quantity of removal, yes, white is one of the best colours, but that's always been a given. That being said, Beast Within is one of the most versatile removal spells in the game.
The problem is that if you just analyze "control" without the context of a deck then the results don't exactly translate to real world application. While yes, esper is excellent for control (never saying it wasn't), a sultai control deck has the edge over an esper control deck due to the speed that green adds. and when you're trying to shut down multiple players at once, mana is a premium. And green offers early game ramp that white just can't, allowing a sultai control deck to keep the pressure on where an esper one would falter. That's why I'm saying sultai is the better deck because of application.
Don't get me wrong, esper and bant are still powerful control colours, I just think that in the actual context of the deck sultai just has an edge of the other two.
April 17, 2016 9:07 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #11
Esper control is usually combo-win so its commanders are sometimes considered combo commanders so arguing about "best control commanders" doesn't accomplish much when assessing the colors for how well they control. Zur the Enchanter, Oloro, Ageless Ascetic, Sharuum the Hegemon and Sen Triplets are all decks with heavy control aspects that get lumped into "combo" because that is their win con. The best control colors are Esper. If you plan on having the game go for more than 5 turns then Sultai becomes more attractive since it has ramp potential and is better in the game of attrition that you have set up than the pure early game disruption that Esper control options supply.
April 17, 2016 10:49 a.m.
PhotogenicParasympathetic says... #12
Sorry to still disagree enpc. However, I don't believe the ramp Green offers makes up for the lack of white. You're talking about the ways in which 3+ players changes the game, but ignoring that without white, you are forced to 1-for-1 for more frequently. White's board wipes are necessary BECAUSE there are so many other opponents. "In the actual context of a deck" is a meaningless phrase unless you're actually talking about a specific deck. In this case, the multiplayer format means that control (no matter the colors) cannot control everyone. Panic buttons are a massive tool for control to have access to, and "I got to my wincon faster" isn't an aspect of a control deck. I'd argue that a Sultai deck actually loses advantage against an Esper deck as the game goes longer- although Sultai can accelerate out of the gate faster, the wider variety of removal and mass removal makes Esper VERY capable of stopping opponents from winning. Sultai is control that boarders on being midrange, and is not as capable in the actually controlling-the-game components as Esper.
Sure, Beast Within is a fantastic card, no question. But white brings Vindicate, Utter End, Swords to Plowshares, Path to Exile, Return to Dust, Disenchant, etc. Green just can't make up for that loss.
Likewise, although the board wipes you listed are certainly great cards, they don't compare to the plethora of options that white adds. Damnation is joined by Wrath of God, Day of Judgment, and Supreme Verdict. The others are outclassed by Martial Coup, End Hostilities, and Fell the Mighty, plus sorta Rout. Not to mention the twin creature-wipes in Sunblast Angel and Angel of the Dire Hour.
Are Sultai valid control colors? Sure, obviously they are a very potent combination. But they are simply not as good at control as Esper. They are worse at control, and have ramp to make up for that deficit.
April 17, 2016 5:47 p.m.
eeriekiller says... #13
I agree 100% with PhotogenicParasympathetic. Esper is not only better, but far more versatile. For example, Oloro is a great general for lifegain/pillowfort decks. Sen Tripplets do well with getting rid of your opponent's hand. Sydri brings land destruction and artifact interaction to the table (which is a great form of ramp in it of itself). All sultai really brings to the table is Damia, Sage of Stone, which is good because of the card advantage, but certainly not better in my opinion because esper has a ton of card draw in its colors.
There are near infinite ways to run esper control. In general, it has better removal (Swords to Plowshares/Vindicate), better artifact interaction (March of the Machines), and it has better counterspells (I like Render Silent over Voidslime because it stops their turn more effectively). With Vindicate and Anguished Unmaking in their toolbelts, Beast Within isn't much of an argument and that's half of green's advantage. As for ramp, there are plenty of mana rocks that would replace those spells just as as effectively and if not more so.
In short, esper is better than sultai because of its superior versatility. With its removal game, it will easily keep the board on lockdown to give it time to combo off and win. The goal for control isn't speeding up your combo, it's to CONTROL your opponents.
April 18, 2016 9:33 a.m.
Gidgetimer says... #14
Since I'm the only one who said anything about Esper being combo/control I will assume that the comments about " 'I got to my wincon faster' isn't an aspect of a control deck" and "The goal for control isn't speeding up your combo" are directed at me.
I understand full well what control decks do. I am not saying that Esper speeds out the wins. Esper control disrupts the opponents and protects their combo with their control. Because Esper usually has a combo win, it does not need the ramp as hard was my point. In games of attrition ramp is more valuable. It allows you to play more cards per turn and continue to disrupt each player in a longer term scenario. Esper does not want to get into an attrition fight. It is concerned with slowing down the opponent until it gets its wincon online. Then protecting what its wincon.
This is the difference between using control to win and using it to not lose for long enough that you eventually have the advantage. Esper uses control to win, Sultai uses it to not lose. I personally am never a fan of trying to not lose. It slows the game to a crawl that is not fun for any of the other parties involved. Once you establish control you should be able to win, not wait around for 20 more turns until you can kill the rest of the table.
Gidgetimer says... #2
Esper is the best overall color combination for control. The best targeted and mass removal is all
, 
, or 
. 
is the goto color for counters. With you exerting control over the board 
and 
both have a wide variety of bombs to win the game. 
is a bit lacking in bombs, but more than makes up for it in draw power.
April 15, 2016 12:20 p.m.