Quest to 30 Walkers. And help w/ a combo... & several other things...
Posted on May 7, 2019, 10:59 a.m. by BMHKain
Commander / EDH*
SCORE: 1 | 14 COMMENTS | 519 VIEWS | IN 2 FOLDERS
For this one, I want to drop my amount of walkers to 30 (Because 25 seems too hard for me.)
Since everyone here apparently hates Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast , & even Rowan Kenrith (with even Saheeli, Sublime Artificer on the same chopping block that killed the former 2.), I actually had a backup plan in the form of Angrath, Captain of Chaos + Crawlspace to keep such creature tokens alive; just block w/ 2 of them, and...
So far, such good cards that were cut are Garruk Wildspeaker (Apparently, someone thought Untapping 2 Lands is meaningless. DX), Will Kenrith (I was running out of ideas from the start. He probably deserves the re-add.), Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor (Taxes those that target your Walkers? Makes Tokens? Loots? Why did I get rid of her?!), Liliana Vess (Uh, Ashiok, Dream Render exterminates all enemy Graves? Angrath, the Flame-Chained makes your opponents' discard & lose life? Do you think I can even make this Liliana a repeatable "Demonic Tutor"? If so...)
Another thing to note, I still need other ways to repeat walker casting via Blinking/Flickering, or something else entirely. I still have no ideas from others. Maybe you can help this time?
JSYK, I already have a cut in mind if I can't find an infinite for Sliver Queen + Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter , & a possible third part of this combo. If this can't work for infinite mana; & from there, infinite Sliver Tokens, Yanggu gets Garruk's Axe.
Now, what to get to 30 Walkers? From there, I should be able to find good enough cuts outside of this...
Thanks for the help; if any... :)
May 7, 2019 3:15 p.m.
May 7, 2019 7:51 p.m.
Credentials: I've been playing superfriends in EDH for years, beginning with an esper SF deck helmed by Oloro, Ageless Ascetic , then adding green with the release of Atraxa, Praetors' Voice . I've played with most of the walkers currently in your deck, either in my own EDH deck or in other formats. In addition, I enjoy building and critiquing EDH decks of all varieties and strive to always be as creative as possible in my builds. These are my suggestions for your cuts:
Aminatou, the Fateshifter doesn't synergize with anything in your deck, and is remarkably underpowered unless she'd built around.
You don't have enough creatures and your deck isn't aggressive enough to care about Angrath, Captain of Chaos , Dovin, Grand Arbiter , Jiang Yanggu , or Serra the Benevolent . None of them help your planeswalker theme. None of them are powerful enough in a vacuum to warrant their inclusion.
You don't have an artifact sideboard for Karn, the Great Creator and you don't care about making things into mostly 1/1 to 3/3 creatures. You have only three artifacts in the deck that become larger than 3/3, and only one that becomes larger than 4/4, and all of your artifacts are better spent being artifacts than being creatures.
Kaya, Bane of the Dead is too expensive for what's basically just removal, and limited to creature removal at that.
Tamiyo, Collector of Tales is a more expensive Eternal Witness , you'll almost never hit with her +1, and her static effect protects you from only two cards that can make you sacrifice planeswalkers (aside from annihilator triggers).
Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Chandra, Torch of Defiance are both very strong in formats that are not EDH. Neither is very strong in EDH, and while Chandra can sometimes sneak in as card draw in mono-red or red-black decks, you've got access to better options. Jace is most of the time a too-expensive brainstorm in this format, and will almost never ult (and if he does... you've won already with any number of other planeswalkers). Neither is worth running in superfriends.
After those, we start getting to the harder cuts - these are walkers that I think could be deserving of a slot in the right circumstances, but that just aren't as powerful as some of the other inclusions you've already got - Dovin Baan is good card draw, but not much else. Ashiok, Dream Render 's lack of repeatability makes him weaker. Sorin Markov is scary, but unless you're getting aggressive... does it really matter what your opponent's life total is? Angrath, the Flame-Chained is neat. He is. He's just not... superfriendsy. He doesn't get more walkers. He doesn't strengthen the walkers you have. He doesn't protect the walkers you have, except from weaker creatures.
That's 14 cuts, brings you to 32. For the last two, pick out the top ten planeswalkers, ten that you'd never even consider cutting, and set them aside. Then look at the remaining 22, and pick out five more that you definitely want to keep, and set them aside. Then forget that you have those 15, and pretend the 17 in front of you are all you've got, and build the most powerful 15-walker set you can.
Final thoughts; your infinite combo idea is cool. But does it belong in this deck? Most superfriends decks are focused in one direction - getting out and using planeswalkers. Adding in a secondary combo will not make your deck stronger - just less focused. If you want combos to finish the game, you've already got The Chain Veil + Rings of Brighthearth + Tezzeret the Seeker + Mana Vault for infinite planeswalker activations (and infinite mana if you've got another mana rock in play). Add in Gilded Lotus for more consistency, and you're good to go.
May 7, 2019 8:03 p.m.
For the record, my top ten walkers from your deck would be (in alphabetical order):
Ajani, the Greathearted
Elspeth, Sun's Champion
Liliana, Dreadhorde General
Sorin, Grim Nemesis
Tamiyo, Field Researcher
Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
Teferi, Temporal Archmage
Tezzeret the Seeker
Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
May 7, 2019 8:10 p.m.
May 7, 2019 8:35 p.m.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic: Peter Capaldi as the Nth Doctor (Remember, Heaven Sent; basically had The Doctor regenerate Hundreds of Billions of times while counting as one.): I'll start with the obvious.
It's ironic you'd recommend Ajani, the Greathearted over Ajani Unyielding for the top ten. MSully_17 actually suggested using Intruder Alarm for a loop between Sliver Queen & Jiang Yanggu, Wildcrafter ; tap 2 +1/+1 Counter Creature tokens, make a Sliver Token, all creatures untap. Something that Superfriends would even have as the equivalent of 1,000,000's of 1/1 Squirrels. Most likely; I'll change the CMDR back to Sliver Queen for this notion.
But back to the other notions:
What's your thoughts on Kasmina, Enigmatic Mentor ? She Taxes opponents, makes you Tokens, & even Loots after token creation.
What about Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath ? After whatever kind of combo to note that I just mentioned, is he any better than Sorin Markov NUMERO I ? His emblem might even be really useful in a plethora of situations...
Ugin, the Ineffable ?: Yeah, I've no Colorless worth chopping the price by . At least making a 2/2 via Topdeck Exile still prevents your enemies from ever knowing what it is, until you have your hand with it in it. But maybe you might be right about this not worth adding into this...
Will Kenrith : Stunned you have no say on this; Will can do actual Transfiguraion; something not even Kasmina, who should be able to do this, has no proof of this. He can even pay for your Walkers, Instants & Sorceries. You can even choose yourself to allow yourself to copy instants, & Sorceries as an Emblem. But I've a bigger interest on one of these thoughts:
The Hated Walkers that Help with so DAMN MUCH. : So many people have hated all 3 of these walkers, & don't care about the idea if infinite activations of Loyalty Abilities on the fly w/ any of these 3. Rowan, for starters, forces target player to attack w/ everything they got. This is a problem in the past, but has since been improved because of a Walker you stated I should cut: Angrath, Captain of Chaos ; & even adding Crawlspace means attacking me w/ 2 creatures just simply gets better when you realize you can block both w/ one each; negating the attack from there. Did I also mention this Angrath would love to play some Jund w/ Doubling Season as well? Amass 2 will create a 0/0 Zombie Army token w/ 2 +1/+1 Counters. Add ol' Doubler, & it is a 4/4 instead. See? I told you this has use. Plus, Rowan's Emblem is actually worth using in a pinch. Now for Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast . He makes 0/1 Construct Tokens w/ Defender; & they can be used as fodder when destroying opposing Artifacts & Creatures; The Construct is actually an Artifact Creature Token you know. Even making 3 Copies of whatever Artifice you need is pretty good; especially since you can also do this in your yard; not just your field. Lastly, Saheeli, Sublime Artificer ; just casting noncreatures as a whole gives you 1/1 Servos. If you can use them to make copies of already existing Aftifacts, this is reason enough to keep all 3. But what's so wrong about Sundial of the Infinite ? It actually helps more for the walkers than so many other things; namely: "Until end of turn", & "This Turn" effects. Those copies are going to stay even if they are forced out of the game in the first place.
Ashiok, Dream Render : Players are definitely going to need to tutor, or just straight up search for anything, which is basically nullified by Superfriends' own Stranglehold . Also, Destroying Enemy Graveyards can actually be extremely useful against those who can use the yard to their advantage. Just imagine a Reanimator deck user's response when he has to use it that much.
That said, again, I'd like some thoughts on all this. Thank you for your time. :)
May 8, 2019 11:18 a.m.
BMHKain: Responding in order.
I like Ajani Unyielding quite a lot. I picked Ajani, the Greathearted for the top ten though, because it's two mana cheaper, and the turn in comes down it puts more counters on your other walkers, meaning you can get some surprise ults off - same with Ajani Steadfast . Nothin' wrong with Unyielding though.
I saw the recommendations for completing the combo. They work. They don't work with your planeswalkers. What happens when you have Intruder Alarm but none of the other pieces? Or Jiang Yanggu but no creatures to put counters on? That combo doesn't synergize with your strategy of playing planeswalkers, and requires you to run three cards that don't help you unless you have both of the others. And again - you've already got an infinite combo in the deck, made up of four cards that all help you even if they're the only one you've drawn.
Kasmina's fine. I don't think she's particularly strong, since targeted removal isn't usually very prevalent in EDH, but that's up to your meta. Her looting is a good ability, but you only have access to it two times without finding ways to put extra counters on her. All in all, she's a C grade planeswalker.
Ob Nixilis is... eh. His +2 will be irritating, and he's useful to draw people's attention away from more dangerous walkers (I used Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver for the same purpose. His -2 is also good for you because a 5/5 blocker is pretty intimidating. His emblem is underwhelming - again, you can't really count on having a ton of creatures to use that emblem on. Also, as a rule of thumb - assume your enemies will not allow you to ult a planeswalker when you're evaluating its strength, because they won't. B-.
Ugin, the Ineffable is quite strong, actually. He's useful removal, he defends himself/your other walkers by making 2/2s, and he pseudo draws cards when those 2/2s die. I'd put him in, most likely. A-, for not being a way to end the game.
Will Kenrith is strong. Didn't comment on him cause I'm looking for cuts, and he's not a cut. ;)
Of the next three, Daretti and Saheeli are both quite strong as walkers to build around. I'm not sure how they'd do in a deck like this. Saheeli's strength is in making blockers when you cast spells. How often do you find yourself casting 2-3 spells per turn? My recollection of my own superfriends deck is that that was somewhat rare, and usually in the later game, as much of the deck has a high CMC. Given that the majority of your deck is 4+ mana, she may not be worth the include here. Sundial of the Infinite buys you some extra time on her ability, but that's not worth an include - it's not that powerful an effect to protect, and it's not synergizing with other cards in the deck. More rules of thumb: never put a card in a deck because it's good along with one other card in the deck. That just means it's bad unless you also get the other card.
Daretti is good for making blockers, and good removal. He's probably the best of the three you listed.
Rowan... I'm surprised to hear people dislike playing against her. She's just... not good. She makes people attack, but unless you've got some other defense going like Crawlspace , they're going to attack you. Crawlspace is good without Rowan. Rowan is not good without crawlspace.
Ashiok, Dream Render is fine. I think he's a C+ of a planeswalker in EDH. If you're facing against a combo deck or a graveyard deck he's better - if you're not, he's worse. I don't think its wrong to include him. I just don't think he's the best you've got.
Dovin, Grand Arbiter is terrible. His +1 does nothing unless you're ahead on board. His ult is basically a better Dig Through Time , which is already underwhelming, plus you have to protect him for four turns to get to it. His -1 is fine as defense, but because it's a -loyalty effect, means it doesn't help him get to his pretty-weak ult. He's easily one of the worst walkers on your list. Grade is an F.
Serra the Benevolent is in a similar boat. Her -ability makes a pretty strong creature, which is nice. Her +ability only helps Atraxa, Praetors' Voice and her own tokens though, and just makes them a bit bigger, which doesn't have much effect if you want to stay on defense. Her emblem is good, and easy to get to, but relies on a not-creature deck having creatures to be strong. Grade is D.
I do think Kiora, the Crashing Wave is stronger than Dovin, Hand of Control . I'm interested in Dovin primarily for his ability to bubble a problematic creature, which is nice defense. But unlike Kiora, Dovin has no other abilities, and his static is... fine. But not particularly strong. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is the card he reminds me of - almost unplayable outside of heavy taxes decks.
May 8, 2019 5:22 p.m.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic: Got rid of the Yanggu Alarm Combo. I'm still getting to 30 at most; or even 28 at max.
Might actually remove Ol'Skuul Ob from this. Already removed The Wanderer , & might also focus on a Creature token Subtheme. You might say Xenagos, the Reveler is gargahge, but making mana w/ a relatively large number of tokens potentially makes his +1 at least Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip (Calling his ability very similar or even almost as good as Gaea's Cradle is actually Highballing it.) level mana flood. He can even give you a 2/2 Satyr w/o any increase (or Decrease) of loyalty. Alot better than many here refer him of so. Alright, might as well remove the Transfigurationess herself. That said, from there, I'm running out of ideas for cuts, & having to make sure Creature Tokens matter as much as the Walkers pumping them out is crazy; but since removing what could make them truly godlike as mana ramp, what to do about this...? Finally, was removing Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury & The Wanderer both mistakes? I'll be waiting...
May 9, 2019 12:42 p.m.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic: (Sorry for tagging you twice now...)
I'm now at 33 Walkers until I reach either 30, or 28. I can't find anymore ideas for cuts. At least three are good, but two more, that would be awesome. Though this amount may decrease yet again; Liliana Vess as a Repeatable Tutor. But is Xenagos, the Reveler , Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury , & The Wanderer worth keeping alongside the former 2? I'd really like your thoughts on this; & the four cards mentioned at the end of the previous post. Thoughts?
May 10, 2019 8:54 a.m.
Of those stax pieces you list, Meekstone is fine, since it only affects Sliver Queen herself from your deck (or rather, that's the only creature that wouldn't untap that matters as an attacker), and shuts down opponents trying to attack you. The others are all fairly weak. Those are typically used as ways of stalling the game - playing them early to slow down your opponents. The problem is, in a walker deck like this, you don't have many ways to get around their effects to make them one-sided, and you really need your mana to be able to deploy your more expensive threats. You can't afford to not be untapping your lands.
Good job on the cuts so far. I would still recommend cutting Angrath, Captain of Chaos - his 2-use ability that makes a 2/2 and then either a replacement 2/2 or turns the first one into a 4/4 isn't great. Regardless of whether or not you decide to go in a more creature-ish direction, he's just not that strong. The menace ability only becomes good if you've got a LOT of creatures in the deck, and ideally big ones that will trade favorably when they do get double-blocked, so even if you decide to take this in a more tokeny direction he's not likely to be impressive.
Xenagos, the Reveler is nowhere near being a Growing Rites of Itlimoc Flip or a Gaea's Cradle . Those are both lands, so they're harder to remove, and at least Growing Rites adds mana after a board wipe, plus can help you find creatures if you don't have any when you play it. And more to the point... are either Growing Rites or Gaea's Cradle good in your deck? If not, then he's not either. He makes 2/2s with haste. That's fine, but not strong. He makes a very small amount of mana. That's also fine, but not strong. His ult is nearly useless to you.
Compare Angrath and Xenagos to the other walkers you have that spit out creatures:
Vraska, Relic Seeker
makes a 2/2 as well, but hers has menace built in, and more importantly, her other two abilities are VERY strong.
Ugin, the Ineffable makes a 2/2 as well, but his effectively draws you a card when it dies, and his other ability is quite strong.
Liliana, Dreadhorde General makes a 2/2 as well, but hers also draws you a card when it dies, and she's got two more very powerful abilities.
Garruk Wildspeaker makes you a 3/3, and ramps you regardless of whether or not you've got a creature in play already.
Garruk, Apex Predator makes a 3/3 with deathtouch, and has two very relevant other abilities PLUS a player-killing ult.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant only makes a 1/1, but she ticks up while she does it, or can grant a powerful buff to a creature you already have, and her ult is game winning.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion only makes 1/1s, but makes three at a time, and can also board wipe.
Daretti, Ingenious Iconoclast only makes a 1/1, but if your opponent can't make you block with it his other ability makes it become free removal.
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer only makes a 1/1, but does it for free and as many times as you can cast noncreatures in a turn.
May 10, 2019 7:50 p.m.
May 10, 2019 7:51 p.m.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic: Hmmm. All right. Angrath has no purpose in Superfriends now. & Didn't even think Xenagos, the R & G Flood that never will (& is dead.) is that weak; His +1 shows lots of Mana Ramp in any combo of &/or Mana. If we have Tokens in question; maybe several of the creatures of this deck, it's close, but no cigar; but at least you're not limited to just . Ol', Dead Xenagos is just one of those walkers that's awesome, but the Ult. is entirely optional; not needed anyway in this case. Irony? Some of the Better Pre-WAR walkers don't even need to use their Ult. Why I removed Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury , I've no idea.
But, sure. A dead God, is better than a Dead Walker (Irony? Xenagos is/was both at differing times.), though I guess some can't win as much as others. Though Dack Fayden is really garbage here, not even enough nonperms that target permanents; if, none at all. This Badass died via having his spark harvested by an Eternal while Ashiok is still at large? 2 Species-less, 2 Genderless, 2 Planeless, 2 DNAless, 2 Anythingless, 2 Fragged-Up Furious. Why...
That mentality crisis out, I'm down to 31 Walkers. Either 1 exterminate 1 good one, or 3. Though someone recommended 20, which is self-nightterror inducing to cut that many walkers, & I'm thinking of putting back Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury ; bringing me back to XXXII. I'm already trying to do something else as well; two+ things; a Vorthos Deck based on a Visual Novel, & a new-Age CHAOS deck running Yidris, Killer of the 4 Color MTG Block Impossibility. . Also updating several other decks left unmentioned.
For now, I'm IE (Upside Down 31.), but what 1, or 3 Walkers to cut? Not going to cut the Evolution Sage Engine; Cycle Duals, BFZ Duals/Shocks, among other things that do Proliferation as I play lands from the dead via Crucible of Worlds . But I've one last thing to ask: Besides Garruk Wildspeaker & his +1, What Walker centered on Lands would be best here? & no, it shouldn't be just Forest s, much less Basics; but all Lands of this deck. Because I can't find one, AT ALL. So, should I keep Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury & go from 1 or 3 Walkers to Garruk Chop to 2 or 4? Also, I apologize for the weird, & truly inane sayings for names. That, & I say this to all Elf Life: To all Elves in MTG; Don't fear progress even in Green Mana, Protect ideas of all; & not kill it. & NOT KILL ANY & EVERY IMPURITY FOR GAEA. We have Romili Reloaded of EoJ, but no RoboElves. & no, AEther Sense count's not. Sorry. DX
(EoJ equals Eye of Judgment.)
May 10, 2019 9:43 p.m.
BUMPING A BIG FAT B------.
So, if I put back Freyalise, what 2, or 4 walkers do you think should be cut down to the recommended 30, or 28?
May 11, 2019 12:05 p.m.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic: Decided to add Freyalise again. Might even add A dead cluster of Stars back in as evidence that even the best walkers don't need to use their Ults to be awesome; unless you're Dack, then you're Wacko from Animaniacs; & seriously Wacko in real life for disagreeing. XP (Note: Dack Fayden's Still dead.) FuuFuu...~ I'm only kidding with ya. Don't be too rash. Ah dammit; I just went from Animaniacs to Kagami Hiiragi of Lucky Star; & I like Nichijou more than that infinitely more. Damn, though. It's been 9 years since the latter first started an Anime in Japan/Nippon. & no Followup series either; Where's Nichijou Zero? You'd might as well say Clannad as a whole is old school now.
(I'll shut up about Kyoto Animation Anime from here.)
So what are the best Pre-WAR Walkers w/o any true need of an Ultimate as that ability isn't needed for success? I think you might want to look this up if you wish. Though doing so will reduce my chances of getting to the minimum target of 30 Walkers, or 28 Walkers at best. I'd like to talk about Galaxy Angel, but damn, as Tact really had quite the feelings for Karasuma Chitose-san, & such a connection distanced so far, it's made worse as a War is going on. I had a list of Top 10 Anime Girlfriends, & Based on backstory, & being a relateable heroine as well, I'm stunned she didn't make my list. Maybe I'll make her an honorable mention on a high level.
Getting out of Galaxy Angel, I'd like you to find some really good Pre-WAR Walkers that don't need to use their Ultimate while their other abilities are awesome as well. I'd really like you to do this, but this is also optional if you wish. Until you find some good examples, Xenagos, Killer of the true Red/Green Theros God will be in until further notice.
Sorry for derailing this post. & Tagging you twice again. & offending you; I didn't even mean to do that.
May 11, 2019 8:57 p.m.
@PhotogenicParasympathetic: Bumping Tag 3? Fine... I'm now trying to cut 3 Walkers for 30, or 5 for 28. Since you probably already oppose Xenagos, what would you cut 3 or 5 Walkers for? Apologies for tritagging, & my previous posts as well...
May 12, 2019 2:48 p.m.
Dude, chill out a little.
I'm happy to talk to you about specific planeswalkers you have questions about, the way I have been for the past several posts. However, I'm not going to go search for planeswalkers for you. I've given you cuts to make a couple of times now. Xenagos, the Reveler is still bad. You've gotta stop adding walkers back in, or you will never have a trimmed down list.
May 12, 2019 9:43 p.m.
Hmph. Very well. The "Not Gruul-Colored God" is dead. Also decided to cut Freyalise again. Now, here's what I've been thinking all this time. If we're referring to the last (Or the first of three last cuts.); I've ben thinking long & hard as crap, & here are the Walkers that I put on Garruk's Chopped by a giant Axe Cut:
Ral Zarek : This one's tough. After cutting Nahiri, the Harbinger (Even her 2nd Loyalty Ability is way better than Vraska, Relic Seeker in which her targets are exiled. Though Mana Ramp from Vraska kept her here in her stead.), having a way to tap & untap all in one ability, but having a Lightning Bolt esque ability is to underwhelming; especially against Her as she stops all non-combat Damage; now how can Mono- Burn decks have any use w/ her around at all? Then there is his ultimate; the only way he can assure you one Extra Turn at least. But you can't call the flip; instead, you'd have to pray your ass it lands on heads at least once. Chaos, & Superfriends are not good here at all. Why WotC didn't make a Mono- Legendary Planeswalker yet that can assess all problems w/ the truly random chances Chaos Decks have (Especialy if it's Mono-; the color w/ the most amount of CHAOS based Cards.)?
Thus why Ral #1 starts off the list of cuts.
… & is also the last. Aminatou, the Fateshifter was initially a big part of the deck, but after a child got chopped, so too did Felidar Guardian . So many good cards got chopped, & they actually had use; not sarcastic. That said, as some of the other Walkers' effects require tapping them either by Ral Zarek , or even Tamiyo, the Moon Sage , hell would occur when such things that require them to be tapped to strike at them; & such cards are no longer in the deck list, Meaningless Burn, & a Chaos Effect that's much riskier than even Mana Crypt , these three reasons (Backed up by the fact one reason each represents a Loyalty Ability.) is why I'd cut Ral, the Self-Electrodominated Baka Yarou that can't burn anyone anymore . I've yet to go any further to find two more cuts. But I'd like your opinion on this, PhotogenicParasympathetic. I don't think I can make beyond 30, so... Any thoughts?