Psychic Strike or Thought Collapse?

Commander Deck Help forum

Posted on Feb. 7, 2019, 9:18 p.m. by DemonDragonJ

Every EDH deck that I have that contains the colors black and blue contains a copy of Psychic Strike , because that card is a very nice counterspell that hurts a player twice.

However, now that Thought Collapse has been printed, I am considering putting it in my decks in place of psychic strike, and the only reason for which I have not yet done do is that I am very fond of multicolored cards and believe that Thought Collapse is too powerful for a monocolored card; it, also, should have been black/blue, in my mind.

What does everyone else say abut this? Should I replace psychic strike with thought collapse?

Caerwyn says... #2

I have to ask, what makes you think Thought Collapse is too powerful for a monocoloired card? I would argue it is vastly inferior to Disallow , which has the same cost.

Milling an opponent is not really hurting them. You are taking unknown cards that could be anything, and replacing the top of their library with more unknown cards that can be anything. Yes, you might hit a combo piece, but you are much more likely to hit lands.

Barring a dedicated mill deck, I can’t see the addition of millig two or three cards as sufficient to justify an entire mana more than Counterspell .

Ultimately, since I do not think the milling is enough to really consider as a factor, I think it comes down to the individual decks and which mana cost is more appropriate based on your needs.

February 7, 2019 9:32 p.m.

Gidgetimer says... #3

What cdkime said except I take it a step further. There are enough strategies that utilize their graveyard in EDH that the mill is actively a drawback for you on those cards.

February 7, 2019 10:22 p.m.

JohnnyBaggins says... #4

Unless you have any rigid synergies with the cards you're putting into their graveyard, neither card is particularly good. To be precise, most of the time in EDH you're actually helping them.

Cards like Disallow , Dissolve or Dissipate are significantly stronger options, not to mention the fact that you're in a format where Counterspell and Mana Drain both are legal.

February 8, 2019 3:30 a.m.

Rzepkanut says... #5

Im not a fan of either card. Mill doesn't work that well in edh imho.

My decks almost always take advantage of a loaded graveyard too so milling me just a little is like letting me draw cards for free.

February 8, 2019 7:10 a.m.

JohnnyBaggins says... #6

Either way, if your mana base is set up correctly, it shouldn't make any difference. If anything, might be harder to get to than most of the games, at least assuming you mulligan correctly.

That doesn't change the fact that, well, both cards are pretty bad in EDH and there's a seemingly infinite amount of better choices.

February 8, 2019 7:19 a.m.

ThoAlmighty says... #7

Mill usually benefits players. Especially in EDH, the graveyard is a resource. The only time it would matter is if they tutor something to the top of their library, then somehow cast something else before they draw it, and that’s really unlikely for you to also have your counter.

February 8, 2019 11:28 a.m.

triproberts12 says... #8

You really shouldn't be running either. Both are bad cards. Maybe they belong in Phenax, God of Deception , but that's about the only scenario I can imagine. In any other case Counterspell , Swan Song , Arcane Denial , Negate , Countersquall , Disallow , Dissipate , Sinister Sabotage , Dissolve , Forbid , Spell Crumple , Void Shatter , Wizard's Retort , Dream Fracture , Admiral's Order , and Dream Fracture should all be in a UB deck before the milling counters even enter the conversation.

February 8, 2019 5:33 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #9

So, it seems that the general consensus here is that I should not have either card in my deck unless that deck has a dedicated milling strategy; I already have both Countersquall and Disallow in that deck, but I still appreciate those suggestions.

Of all the cards that everyone else has suggested, Dissolve appeals to me the most; Arcane Denial and Dream Fracture are nice, but I do not wish to give my opponents card advantage.

What about Undermine ? Is that a worthy replacement, or would it be redundant, as I already have countersquall in that deck?

February 9, 2019 12:52 a.m.

ThoAlmighty says... #10

Dream Fracture and Denial are strong in multiplayer because you break even and the other two players are unaffected.

February 9, 2019 2:45 a.m.

triproberts12 says... #11

The thing about Dream Fracture and Arcane Denial is that they aren't card advantage for opponents. If you're in a 4-player game, countering a spell, costs you a card, and one opponent a card. So, you're at -1, and the table is at an average of -1/3, meaning you're at 2/3 of a card's worth of disadvantage. If you Dream Fracture , you're down no cards, the owner of the target spell is down no cards, meaning you and the table are at parity. If you Arcane Denial , you end up down no cards, the owner of the target spell is up one card, and the other two players are unaffected, meaning you're at 1/3 of a card's worth of disadvantage relative to the table. A few life isn't worth card advantage in Commander. Countersquall only makes the list because it's a second copy of Negate , which is good because it's 2 mana. Undermine is bad, since to cost 3 mana, you need to get some utility. A lot of people compare scry in 60-card formats to half a card, since lands are useless in the late game, but it's more like a third of a card in Commander, but even with that adjustment, Dissolve and Sinister Sabotage only put you down a third of a card relative to the table. The others I mentioned are all more circumstantial, but to get much better, you'll have to drop big bucks on Mana Drain and Cryptic Command .

February 9, 2019 2:51 a.m.

triproberts12 says... #12

Oh, I'm also quite fond of Mystic Confluence .

February 9, 2019 3:04 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #13

triproberts12, Mystic Confluence costs too much mana, and I wish to keep the mana curve of my deck low; Cryptic Command and Mana Drain are too expensive in terms of money. Dissipate is nice, but only truly useful if one's opponent has a dedicated recurrence theme in their deck.

Your explanation was very nice, so I now am deciding between Dissolve and Dream Fracture ; I considered Arcane Denial , but I cannot take the chance that I shall miss the triggered ability (which, regrettably, has happened to me; not far that particular card, but for others cards).

February 9, 2019 9:43 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #14

triproberts12, what about Voidslime ? The deck that I am discussing already has Disallow , but, now that voidslime has been reprinted, it is more affordable, and I could always use the redundancy in an EDH deck.

February 14, 2019 8:45 p.m.

triproberts12 says... #15

Personally, I don't run Disallow in any of my 3 blue decks. It's probably the 5th or 6th Counterspell I would run, in most cases, and it would be even farther down the list if I owned Cryptic Command or Mana Drain . The color restriction on Voidslime is brutal, so unless your meta is overflowing with Planeswalkers or something, I don't see why you would want it.

February 14, 2019 9:15 p.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #16

triproberts12, I like both of those cards ( Disallow and Voidslime ) because they can counter virtually anything; practically every player I know considers Stifle to be an amazing card, so a card that combines it with the original Counterspell must surely be a amazing card, also; do you think that?

February 16, 2019 1:37 a.m.

triproberts12 says... #17

Stifle's main utility in eternal formats is countering fetch lands, where it is an amazing card. A 1-mana land destruction spell in blue is brutal. As for Disallow, it depends on how your deck plays and your meta. If you regularly want to keep up mana, then it's better than Negate. If you see a lot of superfriends decks, then it's probably the best 3-mana counterspell, but I prefer efficiency. For example, in my Shu Yun, the Silent Tempest deck, the difference between keeping up Swan Song and Disallow is huge. Even the difference between keeping up Counterspell and Disallow can be the difference between killing an opponent and having to wait at least one more turn. I'll run Admiral's Order in Shu Yun before Disallow, because I'm much more likely to get wrecked by Pongify or Path to Exile on the attack after I've unloaded the pump spells in my hand than any activated ability. If you want another copy of Disallow, Voidslime is powerful, but you need to keep up GUU, which is a big cost if your deck isn't specifically built to work at instant speed. I don't think I would run it unless I was specifically in a Simic deck.

February 16, 2019 2 a.m.

DemonDragonJ says... #18

cdkime, the deck that I have been discussing is not a dedicated milling deck, so you are correct in that neither card is ideal for it.

triproberts12, the deck that I have been discussing is a four-colored deck with Atraxa, Praetors' Voice as the general, so having a reliable mana base is absolutely critical, and I can say with near certainty that it would be able to reliably cast a card with a heavy color weight, such as Voidslime .

February 16, 2019 10:02 p.m.

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