Need help combatting Flash-Hulk and Gitrog Monster combos.
Posted on Feb. 9, 2019, 3:17 a.m. by StopShot
My deck: Flame Haze
My deck's focus: Win through infinite combos. (Most of which are graveyard-based.) The deck description is under construction. I'm only looking for solutions that can effectively disrupt my opponent's combos without hurting my own. (So no to Rest in Peace .)
My infinite combos:
I've already boarded in cards I believe can help stop my opponent's combos, but I'm not sure if I could be running better options, which is why I'd like second opinions on what I am running as well as what better options may be usable as well.
Cards I've included to combat Flash-Hulk and Gitrog:
Pyroblast - Flash-Hulk
Red Elemental Blast - Flash-Hulk
Dark Betrayal - Gitrog
Cursed Totem - Both
Suppression Field - Both
Yixlid Jailer - Both
Question for Gitrog players: Lastly, while I am no Gitrog expert, I understand that so long as you have the Gitrog Monster, a discard outlet, and a Dakmor Salvage to loop with you can always manipulate your deck to consistently reach the same outcome through a deterministic number of cycles which leads to winning the game. My question is in regards to using your discard phase to discard Dakmor Salvage in order to win the game. While I understand discarding Dakmor this way leads to another discard phase and so on and so forth - cycling through your deck with this specific method does not always create the same outcome through a deterministic set of loops, and would not be a legal way to win the game in a tournament setting due to its un-deterministic nature, correct?
If so I am only interested in playing EDH under what would be allowed in tournament play, and I'd like to discourage any rule-bending win-conditions within my play-group otherwise it would force me to build around nonexistent problems when it comes to real events. That said I'm just too uncertain about the specific jargon and wording I'd use to accurately inform the other players as to this particular side of the gitrog deck given it's very complex interactions as well as it's specific implications with the rules. Simply put, I'd like to have an expert elaborate to me on what needs to be said so that I can just say "no" the next time this comes up without coming off as someone who is clueless over what they're talking about. Thank you.
February 9, 2019 10:30 a.m.
But I forgot to re-read your post so my last two suggestions dont work. Sorry about that
February 9, 2019 10:31 a.m.
Dark Betrayal doesn't seem like it would set the Gitrog player back that much, it probably only buys you a turn. Slapping Darksteel Mutation on it at least forces them to dig for enchantment removal or a sac outlet [and the sample list I looked at only has discard outlets] so maybe you get a couple more turns to find a longer term answer or win with your own combo.
Not an expert on the differences but I believe Gitrog's abilities are as follows: Deathtouch = static ability, upkeep cost, play extra land = static and draw card = triggered ability; so no activated ones so I don't think Cursed Totem or Suppression Field hurt it, but they would stop your Walking Ballista
February 9, 2019 11:36 a.m.
I’d rather play more versatile removal such as Go for the Throat instead of Dark Betrayal . You should definitely play Leyline of the Void as it doesn’t affect your yard and cancels draw triggers for gitrog. You could also play Spirit of the Labyrinth to slow gitrog down but note that they can win through this effect if they haven’t drawn a card for the turn they intend to go off on. The problem with hate creatures that affect gitrog is that they typically have 1 toughness which if they run Darkblast can be pretty lights out.
xaarvaxus: while cursed totem doesn’t touch any of gitrogs inherent abilities it does shut off Putrid Imp , Oblivion Crown , and all of its discard outlets besides Chains of Mephistopheles and the handsize outlet
February 9, 2019 11:55 a.m.
@killroy726, FormerBalloon, The problem with cards like Tormod's Crypt , Relic of Progenitus , and Nihil Spellbomb is both deck strategies can easily bypass these. Flash-Hulk can easily tutor out a Grand Abolisher which shuts down their abilities entirely, and Gitrog can always discard another land, or put a draw trigger on the stack to save their Dakmor Salvage just to resume the combo all over again.
@xaarvaxus, The Walking Ballista combo has been removed in order to run these hate cards, but I still note it in case if there are better cards that won't interfere with it. I did run Darksteel Mutation , but the Gitrog player would just start playing their full combo in one turn which bypasses the sorcery speed of Darksteel Mutation . To better effect I simply ran Nevermore naming The Gitrog Monster , but Nevermore would become awkward in games where The Gitrog Monster wasn't present, as Nevermore 's hate effect can really get a particular player to start hating you fast.
@xeratheenigma, I've considered cards such as Go for the Throat and Terminate , but holding up 2 mana every turn can feel like a serious drag and slows my board progression over time, so I would prefer to keep it to 1-mana instant speed spells if applicable. (Plus a lot of popular commanders utilize black anyway, but I agree that I'd like a card that had better range as it feels like a worse Pyroblast .)
Instead of Darkblast I run Molten Vortex as it's repeatable effect can bypass counterspells which is very helpful against counter-heavy decks that want to win through Laboratory Maniac , Azami, Lady of Scrolls , Arcum Dagsson and Edric, Spymaster of Trest . I've ran Barbarian Ring , Cabal Pit , and Scavenger Grounds , but the flux of graveyard hate easily kills threshold and holding up 2 mana and the Scavenger Grounds is a real pain. I'm on the fence about Faerie Macabre as the graveyard-hate effect feels too narrow against other decks. I might be more inclined to run Ghost-Lit Raider , but holding up 4-mana doesn't make it any better either. Leyline of the Void also feels gimmicky as a 1-of in a 100-card deck, as both combos can easily out-race me in playing it if it's not in my opening hand. I would prefer running Planar Void instead, but that card would ruin my Wayward Servant + Gravecrawler combo.
The Gitrog player in my play group doesn't own a Chains of Mephistopheles , but I'm fairly certain it's discard effect would trigger before the dredge trigger unless they have two Dakmor Salvage 's. Either way, it's discard effect by itself isn't an activated ability, so I question if using one to cycle through the deck this way would share the same un-deterministic qualities as using the discard phase. (And thus be frowned upon in tournament settings.)