Is it Stuffy in here?
Commander Deck Help forum
Posted on Oct. 21, 2016, 2:12 p.m. by Steelspike
So, yesterday I killed two people at once with this combo Stuffy Doll, Guilty Conscience and Strionic Resonator.
Now, naturally, one of them got all asshurt, "You can't do that! Resonator says triggered! You ACTIVATED Stuffy Doll!" I (gently) reminded him that Dolls' "whenever it's dealt damage" is triggered, but logic was wasted on the poor fellow, as he took his ball and went home, as it were, pissing and moaning the whole way.
I'd like some opinions, fellow commanders. How jank is that combo, and should I even run it?
I mean, it IS in my Derevi deck, so (intelligent) folks should expect SOME jank that comes with ETB Bant decks.
What say you?
It don't work to kill more than one player. As the triggered ability from doll don't target.
October 21, 2016 2:47 p.m.
Also how did you choose a new player with the doll after you killed one?
October 21, 2016 4 p.m.
Lol you're trashing on your friend because he called you out on something that doesn't work.
October 21, 2016 4:33 p.m.
You'd have to blink it in order to choose a different player.
October 21, 2016 4:49 p.m.
libraryjoy says... #7
I have to agree with Tyrant-Thanatos. The combo will kill only one player, because there is no way to choose another player, unless you blink Stuffy. Which a Derevi deck could do. Except the enchantment would fall off and you'd have to fish it out of your graveyard. I also fail to see the point in the Strionic Resonator. Combo should work just fine without it.
But, see, now you've given me evil ideas for the Brago, King Eternal deck that I'm building thanks to the Coliseum of Randomness.
October 21, 2016 4:59 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #8
This is why you should always look things up before an argument over rules gets heated enough for people to leave. Even if you think you know them like the back of your hand. I don't care if you're a certified judge, you look things up and clarify before people start shouting and scooping.
This case seems like it'd been solved by a simple rereading of the cards, and a rational discussion. I don't blame the guy for leaving, sounds like it was the smartest option he had.
October 21, 2016 5:13 p.m.
I think it's a sick combo. I never realized Guilty Conscience could actually be good.
October 21, 2016 5:17 p.m.
it clearly doesn't work like they think it does, but for completion's sake, couldn't you copy the etb trigger and hit 2?
October 21, 2016 6:55 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #11
I'm fairly certain that choosing a player is not an ETB trigger. I'm not 100% sure on this, but it doesn't use "When/Whenever" terminology. Pretty sure it works like Clone.
October 21, 2016 7:10 p.m.
PookandPie says... #12
Thanatos is correct- Stuffy Doll's ETB is not a triggered ability. "As" abilities are set before the spell finishes resolving whereas "Whenever", "When" and, "At" abilities require the spell to resolve before they trigger (this is why you can't Doom Blade a Voice of All naming black) and also use the stack. This is why players don't know who Stuffy Doll has chosen while it is on the stack- players have to choose whether or not to counter it without having that information, just like with Clone.
Strionic Resonator has absolutely no function in this specific combo outside of causing the named player 1 extra damage.
Basically, this guy caused another player to get pissed off and leave over a card game and the OP wasn't even correct. The player that left was right, but he was (supposedly) wrong about why according to the OP.
Now, advice time: I would suggest being the bigger person and apologizing to that player, admitting you were wrong, and then maybe researching your combos before getting into such a heated argument about them.
I have only ever been in an argument this bad twice over 8-9 years, and one of them was because a guy didn't know that cards aren't ever, "On their way to the graveyard" anymore (my deck was an old Reveillark combo deck from Lorwyn Standard that was kept together, while everyone else was playing stuff like Allies, anyway, a friend of the host said the combo of Reveillark, Body Double, Mirror Entity didn't work because he was still mixed up on pre-6th batch rules or something. I didn't find this out until later, and I never played with those people again because rather than admitting he was wrong after I gave the host that night proof the combo worked (I literally went home and printed the Reveillark primer from Wizards' official forums and came back 20~ minutes later), he doubled down and lied to them, telling them that he contacted the guy who began the thread, told him he was wrong, and then received an apology from the primer-writer because he, and I quote, "Has been so wrong for two years". The host believed him, by the way, as he was the one who informed me not to bring that deck again and that I needed to learn the rules- I just never bother going back there again.
The other time was with a guy who knew how infinite combo shortcuts worked for tournaments to a rudimentary degree, but never heard of APNAP order so he didn't understand why, when he was the active player, that my infinite combo beat out his infinite combo. We got into a heated argument, and I also never played with this individual again and, far as I know, he still doesn't understand why because I'm not bothering to teach him, that's how badly he pissed me off over it (he then went so far as to accuse me of cheating because my Ghave deck always won with an infinite combo of some kind, which prompted me to upload my deck here and type out every single combo it could perform. There's at least 40 ways for me to go infinite in that deck so I took it as the highest insult).
So, if you want to play with this person ever again, you better man up and apologize. Even if he may have been wrong about why your nonbo didn't work, he was correct that he didn't lose to it, and depending on how heated the conversation got, you may lose a player for good if you don't take a dose of act right.
The last three paragraphs was just my own personal advice and experience, of course. Feel free to take it or not.
October 22, 2016 1:29 a.m.
Steelspike says... #13
Okay, first off, I didn't know this actually posted since I got a "Site Down For Maintenance" message when I tried to post it. Therefore, I never checked on it until now. Sorry.
Anyhoo, Resonator states "copy target triggered ability, you can choose new targets for the copy" Stuffy reads "whenever it's dealt damage, it deals that much damage to chosen player" I copy that ability (with the 'whenever'), choosing a new target, the other player. I mean, what am I missing here?
I do play Brago, King Eternal in the 99 so I can blink guilty conscience along with the Doll.
The combo of Doll and Guilty cannot be stopped once it's activated. Even if they Time Stop, fantastic. You ended the turn. You're still dead, because it fires at faster than split second speed. I've had this explained to several people by our resident judge.
Maybe I'm coming off as a dick, I don't know and don't mean to, but I wasn't a dick to the guy. I wasn't smug or condescending. He went nuts and left.
October 22, 2016 3:27 a.m. Edited.
Steelspike, Stuffy Doll doesn't have the word "target" on the card at all. It doesn't target.
Also, your resident judge is wrong because triggered abilities use the stack.
October 22, 2016 6:38 a.m.
Clarification: Time Stop can be played after Guilty Conscience + Stuffy Doll goes off because the triggers for both still go on the stack and each player gets priority before each trigger resolves. Mind you, it isn't exactly difficult to respond to whatever it is that your opponent does by dealing more damage to Stuffy Doll somehow...unless they cast Sudden Spoiling or Krosan Grip.
October 22, 2016 6:58 a.m. Edited.
libraryjoy says... #16
1empyrean is right. Stuffy Doll doesn't target. And the choosing of the player happens only when Stuffy enters the field, not when the damage is dealt. So you'll have to use Brago, not, Strionic Resonator, to make the combo kill more than once (but to do it right away you'll need something to give stuffy haste).
Also, he's right about the stack. Triggered abilities go on the stack. Time Stop goes on the stack and resolves first. If you can respond somehow doing more damage to stuffy, that goes on the stack, and resolves before the time stop, killing someone before Time Stop resolves. The only thing that stops other responses from going on the stack is someone playing something with split second. After doing some research on priority, the only way to make sure no one responds to your combo is after triggering the ability, you retain priority and cast a spell with Split Second, like Angel's Grace or Stonewood Invocation. This prevents anyone else from responding to add triggers/spells to the stack.
October 22, 2016 1:02 p.m.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #17
Steelspike, try reading Stuffy Doll again. Slowly. You choose a player As it enters the battlefield. It deals its triggered damage to the chosen player, as in, the one you chose when you played Stuffy Doll. It does NOT do the damage to target player, as it would have to in order for you to choose a target each time. You HAVE to blink or otherwise recast Stuffy to choose a new player.
October 22, 2016 1:10 p.m.
libraryjoy Actually, split second spells would only keep players from responding until they resolve (and doesn't do anything to prevent triggered abilities, btw). Angel's Grace would be a way for someone to respond to this combo, but I didn't mention it because ending the game in a draw because of Angel's Grace is awful. I don't recommend it.
October 22, 2016 1:30 p.m.
Steelspike says... #19
alright.
Thank you guys for the clarification. I was mislead and regret listening to the judge.
I'm not going to apologize to the guy, though. He said some... rude things. Besides, anyone that reacts like that to something as trivial as a 'friendly' game of commander, I don't want to know them anyway.
Tyrant-Thanatos says... #2
I'm trying to work out how you killed two players with this, and/or why Strionic Resonator is even involved. Guilty Conscience + Stuffy Doll will kill a player, but I don't see how Strionic Resonator adding an extra trigger for 1 more damage would change anything...
October 21, 2016 2:19 p.m.