How mean is "too mean" to bring to an LGS?

Commander Deck Help forum

Posted on Oct. 24, 2017, 1:55 a.m. by SteelSentry

I was talking to someone who has a Mogis, God of Slaughter deck after a game, trying to get ideas for a Zo-Zu the Punisher deck I've been working on. Unfortunately, I made the mistake of uttering the words "mass land destruction" in public, and was immediately set upon by several players who were adamant that it was taboo to blow up lands. Their main arguments were that lands are off-limits, and that the game's over once an Armageddon (or Epicenter since I'm mono-R) happens. Later that night, I ended up playing against two of the people in a pod. One was playing Kaalia of the Vast and dropped an Avacyn, Angel of Hope in for free on turn 5, and the other was playing a ramp deck that easily had 17 lands on the board at around the same time. At that point, there was literally nothing I could do in that game, but those cases aren't "unfair" or "taboo".

tl;dr How mean is "too mean", what do you consider off limits, and most importantly, how do you counter land-based ramp strategies if you can't touch the lands?

EDIT: Side question, especially if you are against the use of MLD: How do you feel about Ruination or Keldon Firebombers? Are they MLD, and are they as bad as a full-on Armageddon effect? If you would scoop to Armageddon, would you scoop to a Firebombers?

miracleHat says... #2

kaalia deck should not be complaining about land destruction :P

Anyhow, more importantly, if they don't like land destruction and you want to continue playing with them, either find a way to crowdsource people for "pro land destruction" or don't play.

For casual groups, these tend to fall under 'taboo': any infinite combo, any top tier deck, land destruction, any deck that kills >1 other person before turn 5.

This usually results in people playing: aggro, voltron, gimick/theme decks, tribal goodstuff, colored-goodstuff, and semi-control/semi-other stuff.

October 24, 2017 2:13 a.m.

Postmortal_Pop says... #3

My go to choice when people say I cant destroy land is to play Mycosynth Lattice and either Scrap Mastery or March of the Machines. "I never destroyed your land, I moved them or let them die on their own accord."

As for "too mean," I feel it's relative to the game at hand, and as a now strictly mono red Daretti player, I would say this was not a fair match. Red is absolutely the worst mono color in EDH, and land destruction helps balance the game in matches where you drop turn 5 Avacyn.

That said, I would heavily suggest making a copy of your deck that plays chaos effects. After a match where you've spent the whole game playing things like Scrambleverse, Omen Machine, And Warp World Players are a lot more likely to hear you out about land destruction.

October 24, 2017 2:29 a.m.

Steelspike says... #4

I would file lando under oppressive.

I hate anything that doesn't let a person play magic, and nothing will take me emotionally out of a game faster than a super oppressive deck.

I feel that if you only have fun when nobody else is allowed to play, then just play with yourself since that's all you're really doing anyway.

Back on subject, I've played in some LGS's that ban Annihilator, infect and infinite combos that don't immediately win.

I've also played where they don't allow certain commanders that aren't on the official banlist that are just too powerful.

Honestly, it all just depends on your playgroup, but I would suggest playing Worldgorger Dragon while floating enough mana to play Jokulhaups, killing everything and getting all your permanents back for the kill shot. The only thing with that strategy is someone will inevitably start running Sadistic Sacrament to get rid of it.

To answer the ramp thing, I would do From the Ashes, it doesn't count as lando, because they can get basics. There's also a card that deals x damage to opponents where x is the number of nonbasic lands they control, or something. It might not be mono-red, but I know it exists.

Also, Stoneshaker Shaman makes them sac an untapped land. Just one a turn, but enough to be annoying.

I'm sure there's more, but that's what I can think of right now.

Post Script: You might want to change your style and add another color. Mono-red is the hands-down weakest color in commander

October 24, 2017 2:46 a.m.

SteelSentry says... #5

Steelspike I guess that makes sense. I just don't know where to draw the line. From the Ashes was already in consideration, but what about Ruination? How about Keldon Firebombers? Tectonic Break for 6?

I personally don't see the difference between the Worldgorger and Jokulhaups, and say, Epicenter with Dingus Egg out? I wouldn't just run out a MLD without a clear plan to win either immediately or within a couple turns.

I will probably cut the MLD and just have a mono-R stax build. Mono-R isn't as bad as mono-W, and this specific deck I don't see becoming more "fun" than 2 color, especially since I can run non-basic hate in mono color without hurting myself. In fact, splashing black for Tainted AEther and Lethal Vapors seems way more oppressive than just having Scab-Clan Berserker or Manabarbs.

October 24, 2017 2:59 a.m.

Steelspike says... #6

I have one deck that I call "Fuck Morgan" (Skeleton Christ on my page) because I only bring it out when a particular individual sits down to play. My other decks are mostly for fun, although, my Zombie deck hasn't lost since I put The Scarab God as the commander... In fact, my last game with it was streamed on Twitch if you're interested. 6 player game, and I took almost all of them out myself.

Anyway, back on topic. I only have 2 decks that have less than 3 colors, so I'm probably not the best to ask about mono-colors... Although, if pushed, I would build a Norin the Wary for red, and load up with all the ETB pain I could Warstorm Surge, Gratuitous Violence, Purphoros, God of the Forge etc. with a sub-theme of ultra aggro Urabrask the Hidden, Anger type of play.

October 24, 2017 3:18 a.m.

GeminiSpartanX says... #7

I can confirm that the Kaalia deck has no place talking about 'unfair' strategies like LD in EDH.

I would say that it all depends on how you play your LD spells. If you are behind on board and have no chance of recovering, then just go "screw it, I'm blowing up everyone's lands before I die!", then I would say that wouldn't be appropriate. If you legitimately build your deck in such a way that the mass LD plays into your overall game plan, then it's more acceptable to most players once they know your strategy. You still might get hated out, but there's a better chance they'll be more forgiving.

October 24, 2017 6:45 a.m.

Ohthenoises says... #8

If you want mono red Im still working on a unique Feldon deck you may like.

Its not 100% done and Im missing stuff for sure, however its a start

Feldon start

As far as MLD the key is to sit down and have a talk with the group without getting defensive. Ask them about what theyre playing, then when someone says Kaalia make a note that Kaalia cheats out AAoH on T4 or worse, Sire of Insanity. Master of cruelties is also unfair.

Dont get confrontational just appeal to common sense. If they are running what amounts to sneak attack in the command zone without the sacrifice clause isnt that a bit hypocritical?

October 24, 2017 8:27 a.m. Edited.

Rzepkanut says... #9

Don't let talk slow you down!! If you think you have a cool deck strategy try it out, even if its an unpopular concept. You don't really know how its actually gonna play out unless you try it. Maybe in that meta its actually just fine to blow up lands and the people you talked to were just being judgemental and trying to scare you away from being a challenge to them.

October 24, 2017 8:31 a.m.

rob_shifflett says... #10

Give them a taste of there own medicine by using a Mono-red commander that can out ramp green and literally kill the whole table on 4-6. Neheb, the Eternal extra combat steps/burn. They will be begging you to bring MLD.

October 24, 2017 10:06 a.m.

dan8080 says... #11

Yeah I'm not huge on someone complaining about land destruction and then dropping a Kaalia deck who I've seen banned in some play groups out of principle. Same with the turbo ramp as someone who runs two ramp decks one that's a simic stompy deck and one that's a gitrog combo deck I kind of accept that I'm bringing potential for pain and misery to myself versus land destruction. Luckily none of my play groups personally have ever felt the need to ban things but I mean what's "too mean" really depends on the playgroup. Like I said my groups I've had never had any issues like that. If we were worried about a deck we played politics to try to make sure the problem deck wasn't too problematic. Oh and on the mycosynth line that someone mentioned roll out an overloaded Vandalblast and laugh. I use that combo in a deck thats main goal is to equip Nicol Bolas with either Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker or the god pharoah one because I like to mess with flavor.

October 24, 2017 11:55 a.m.

RedUndead40 says... #12

May main suggestions are to either drop MLD for targeted land destruction like Ghost Quarter, or cards that "incidentally" remove lands like Volcanic Offering or Decimate. This way people cant complain too much but you still dont have to sit back and watch people abuse stuff like Glacial Chasm.

The other way is to just play things like Contamination, Quicksilver Fountain, or Blood Moon. Hey, I didn't destroy anything!

October 24, 2017 1:12 p.m.

Mortlocke says... #13

"How mean is "too mean", what do you consider off limits, and most importantly, how do you counter land-based ramp strategies if you can't touch the lands?"

So how mean is too mean?

  1. When you have 10 to 15 minute turns where you are just playing things non-stop, and the game basically turns into your opponents sitting there waiting on you.

  2. When you have a tier 1 deck, and everyone else is using a janky tier 3 or 4 deck.

What do you consider off limits?

Personally I have no issues with any single legal commander deck strategies. I do take issue with illegitimate strategies though i.e. illegally using multiple copies of cards, using unglued/unhinged cards etc. I mean, my "best deck" if you will is Slivers so I don't have much room to judge others on what is considered "valid" for EDH.

How do you counter land-based ramp strategies if you can't touch the lands?

Have opponents who have land-ramp based strats? That's just fine. Hit them with the following spells late game and reap the salt.

October 24, 2017 1:27 p.m. Edited.

SteelSentry says... #14

How do effects that only blow up most of your lands factor into this? How "mean" is it to play Destructive Force or Keldon Firebombers?

October 24, 2017 5:53 p.m.

SpammyV says... #15

I think that a lot of Commander players have a bias in that they perceive what they are doing as fine and what their opponents do as problematic.

For example, I have no problems with playing an Ink-Treader Nephilim deck and ending every game by casting Act of Treason on my Commander. (Also, make sure your group is okay with using Nephilim as Commanders). Other players may disagree. I've also run a Heartless Hidetsugu deck where I played quiet until I judged the time was right and then killed everyone in a turn. From my end it was about playing crafty and carefully manipulating life totals, watching untapped land and waiting to spring the combo on people.

I have a friend who's made Kambal and Nekusar decks. After a few games I hit on the strategy to deal with him: Kill his Commander every time it was played and/or kill him first. We had a good discussion about it though, where I laid out that the optimal thing for me to be doing in this games was eliminating his Commander or eliminating him. In the end I would like to think we've somewhat compromised. He has other decks and I've developed some counters to his decks. He doesn't play the decks I hate as much and when he does I don't focus him unless he "deserves" it. That was really the thing that prompted the discussion: I tried to keep him down and he kept saying, "Why me? I haven't done anything!"

So my advice would be that if you have someone in your group that you're on good friendly terms with you should have a discussion about what you feel like might be an unfair thing to do, but seems like the most reasonable counter to their decks. It worked for me.

October 24, 2017 8:03 p.m.

etapollo13 says... #16

I'm weird about it.. I personally don't use or enjoy mld or stax in magic.. don't get me wrong, they're totally legal, and I'll play against them just fine but I get why so many people hate it.. in EDH, you're usually playing with 4 people, so I avoid using archetypes that feel "oppressive." People seem to be ok with board manipulation as long as it doesn't instantly double or triple the length of the game. I always try to win, but winning isn't why I play. I play to have fun and experience crazy interactions. The problem with MLD and stax is that it hoards all of the interaction. I've had great times losing to competitive decks, but nobody has a good time when they have to sit at a table watching one person play.. My favorite deck to play with is a sultai control deck, but I let people play their decks (unless it hurts me directly lol). TLDR; it might not be a question of fairness or power level, but one of enjoyability and interactivity..

October 24, 2017 8:25 p.m.

etapollo13 says... #17

Also, ruination seems fun. It's pretty competitive, but it punishes people who push hard into non-basics.. I'm not a huge fan of MLD but I've been weirdly ok with stuff like ruination and blood moon.. it gives an advantage to mono color decks, but it seems like (in my town at least) generally the more expensive decks run better Mana bases, which tend to run more non basics.. I'm all for tactics that hurt "better decks" more..

October 24, 2017 8:31 p.m.

Azdranax says... #18

I've never quite understood the MLD double-standard myself, as my LGS includes numerous Tier 1.5 and Tier 2 competitive decks (mono-black doomsday/ad nauseam, multiple Kaalia, multiple Animar, Derevi prison lock, Zur lock, Jarad, Talrand counter storm, etc.), but any time anyone plays MLD, at least one of the players will scoop and bitch about it. Ironically, within a game or two later, their deck will then go off and they will combo out for 10-15 minutes without a second thought.

In my opinion, I think the overwhelming MLD hate stems from the considerable lack of any win con related to the action. Normally, it's played to level the playing field or sustain a leading board state for the individual playing it, but it almost never wins the game - in fact it almost guarantees the game will double in length, if not worse. I also think a lot of players treat land differently than other permanents, even though they technically aren't. Spells affecting lands rather than destroying lands doesn't raise their ire nearly as much, so cards like Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Sunder, etc. aren't looked at nearly as negatively, despite the often similar effect. Likewise, individual lands, especially Gaea's Cradle, Cabal Coffers, Academy Ruins, Volrath's Stronghold et al, can get single-target destroyed and no one bats an eye, but everyone's lands burn, basics included, and there's a good chance people start rage quitting.

That said, there is a relatively simple fix with some quick discussion within your play group. One option is to enact a house rule that basic lands are indestructible, which essentially turns all MLD spells into Ruination instead. Mono-color and more casual players are usually pretty open to this one, so it may be a nice compromise in order to build the deck you want without creating an atmosphere of resentment...even if that resentment is based on a total double-standard.

October 25, 2017 1:07 a.m.

DRACULA150704 says... #19

Don't use a kaalia deck unless you want to win a game quickly without having any fun.

October 25, 2017 3:38 a.m.

Wolfrage76 says... #20

Yesterday someone made all lands swamps, and all swamps creatures, and someone else decided to blow away everyone's land. I still won with a Time Sieve + Thopter Assembly combo. It's all fair in love, war and Magic.

October 27, 2017 9:55 a.m.

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