How can I bring Superfriends to cEDH?

Commander Deck Help forum

Posted on March 9, 2018, 1:46 p.m. by BMHKain

Ramos' 1000% Mastuh Spaku

I'd also like to know what staples would be great for this deck; since the site is down. Also, I'd like to know which Planeswalkers would fit in a deck like this; I mean, I need card draw, mana ramp, tokens, even ultimates that are considered quick t get to. I'm even getting rid of my Mogis deck for this.

Any suggestions? & No; "Superfriends in cEDH is impossible" does not count... >_>

redkhan says... #2

For draw Mystic Remora and Rhystic Study would be good. If you happened to have seen the Dominaria leak we are getting a new Karn that might be good and a new mox for legends and planeswalkers.

March 9, 2018 2:18 p.m.

PookandPie says... #3

The answer is: Superfriends is not a cEDH viable archetype. There's a reason why cEDH decks don't have average converted mana costs of 4.02, and the worst cards in your deck will typically be the Planeswalkers. So, you may not want it to count, but this is like asking how to beat Doomsday/Ad Nauseam Zur with Isamaru, Hound of Konda. Outside of a few hatebears you'll have to mulligan to, you have absolutely no game vs FC Tazri, Doomsday Zur, Grixis Storm, and more.

To give actual advice that may help, though, and not just be contrary:

The best Super Friends deck I've ever seen was a Narset, Enlightened Master build. Yeah, it had no Doubling Season, but it also didn't have to wait until t3 or t4 before it did literally anything at all (what deck wants to pay 5 for Tamiyo when 5 mana gets you Ad Nauseam?). The guy would routinely cast a few Planeswalkers and extra turn spells, and then finish off with Jokulhaups, Devastation, Obliterate, and the like.

The deck was high variance (versus Zur/Tazri/Storm etc. which can consistently win on turns 3-5 if unimpeded), but it was able to race tier 2 Commanders fairly well if he mulliganed to the right cards.

Ramos's mana cost is too high to be a 'storm' type Commander in cEDH, though he can do some cute stuff, and that holds true for Super Friends as well because he requires additional support outside of just casting him (IE, casting a bunch of low cost spells to build up the mana, which Planeswalkers are contradictory toward this gameplan), whereas Narset is just cast + swing. Yeah, you'll lose Doubling Season and every good green Walker, but you gain a reasonable way to cast Jokulhaups on the fourth/fifth turn which, if no one has won the game, will definitely set people back. An active Tezzeret and Narset Walker or Mindsculptor after destroying everything and taking extra turns is basically better, and you're doing all of it faster.

So that's my vote. Run Narset, extra turn spells, big destruction (Armageddon and its ilk), and lots of hate cards. Cursed Totem will probably be a must because you'll have to mulligan to something like Pyroclasm or lose vs Yisan, Arcum, Sisay, etc., Rest in Peace is solid vs Karador, Breya, etc., I'm a huge fan of Aura of Silence, Stranglehold is always good due to cEDH's reliance upon tutors, Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, and probably like 13-15 mana rocks to get Narset out a couple turns earlier so you can get the train rolling by fourth or fifth turn.

March 9, 2018 2:29 p.m.

BMHKain says... #4

@redkhan: Let's hope the leaks are true; I'd like to see more of those after The Immortal Sun... >_<

@PookandPie: True, I lose Doubling Season, but that also rejects any purpose for stuff like Black Tutors, as well as other crazy stuff like Atraxa. But I do understand where you're going, sir. We have Saheeli Rai, Tezzeret the Seeker , among others. But if I'm going for this, what other walkers in these colors would be recommended? I mean, remember: Ral Zarek's first ability is better what others think, you know... >_>

Oh, wincon already: Saheeli + The Chain Veil + Ral and/or Tezzeret = COURAGE MACHINE GUN PAWNCH! Sorry, had to go there... Xp

March 10, 2018 7:25 a.m.

rockleemyhero says... #5

PookandPie is right if you are referring to true, top tier cedh. Its a turn 3 format and unfortunately superfriends is much too slow for that environment. However, cedh is a pretty loosely defined term around here, so we could be on different pages. What do you mean when you say cedh? Whats your meta like?

March 10, 2018 10:56 a.m.

BMHKain says... #6

@rockleemyhero: If what (He?) says about this is true, Extra Turn stuff, & Wraths in such colors seem pretty decent, although in an ironic turn of events...


I currently have no meta around the Worchester Area... >_<

Making the deck now...

March 10, 2018 1:33 p.m.

BMHKain says... #7

Superfriends is (NOT) impossible in cEDH...

This is the deck thus far. OBVIOUSLY not complete. Got my EXtra Turn package, but this decklist won't be ready until DOMINARIA's release. For now, suggestions?

March 11, 2018 4:56 p.m.

BMHKain says... #8

Anyways, here are some questions I really need answers for:

  1. How many lands?

  2. Not counting Mox Amber, what 14 other rocks should I use?

  3. How many EX turn cards? Just wondering...

  4. Is the new Teferi & Karn worth using, as well as the new Oath?

  5. How many Walkers?

  6. Does Tamiyo, the Moon Sage's emblem bypass Rest in Peace?


  1. Should I use the usual Spot Removal, & what wraths to use?

Thanks again! _

March 12, 2018 10:14 a.m.

BMHKain says... #9

Actually I meant 7. Crap... >~<

March 12, 2018 10:15 a.m.

BMHKain says... #10

At 75+ cards now. I just want a review of the deck thus far. Anyone willing?

Superfriends is (NOT) impossible in cEDH...

I also want some questions above answered, please.

March 12, 2018 12:29 p.m.

PookandPie says... #11

1) Depends on your fast mana situation. My decks tend to run about 50-55~ mana sources, both lands, rocks, and rituals. My Sisay deck, for example, has 31 land but 24 additional mana sources on top of it (I kind of need it for Paradox Engine). 35 + 20 or so should be fine, really, since your Commander will be 6 mana.

2) Talisman of Progress should be in, and Mind Stone isn't bad either as it can be an extra card when you're 'comboing off'. Coalition Relic also seems pretty reasonable since it can +2 mana in one turn even if it is 3 mana. Grim Monolith, too. Narset needs more mana rocks that the typical deck now since you can't sculpt your hand with Vancouver mulligans and it needs to race to 6 mana ASAP in order to keep up.

3) I would personally run all of them except savor the moment, lol. Even Temporal Trespass.

4) Teferi's Oath is probably the best of the bunch, and if you get it for free then it's not bad. The new Teferi is probably much better than gideon of the Trials. Or Gideon Jura, for that matter. Just straight up drawing a card is good.

5) I dunno, probably 10-15. They shouldn't take up 20% of the deck because

6) No, it doesn't. Rest in Peace is a replacement effect, Tamiyo's emblem is a triggered ability. The card doesn't even go to the graveyard to trigger the ability of her emblem.

7) Spot removal should absolutely be in. Swords to Plowshares stops pesky creatures, and anything reasonably cost that gets rid of enchantments would be good too (otherwise how will you beat Food Chain). As for Wraths, just a few basic ones. Very few tier 1 decks actually rely on a mass of creatures, so in mine I just run like Toxic Deluge or something, but a simple Wrath of God or two wouldn't be bad.

Quick notes:

Inexorable Tide probably won't be able to contribute enough to warrant its slot over, say, another extra turn spell. Even if you can put loads of counters on your Planeswalkers during a Paradox Engine chain, you can still only use them once per your turn (unless you have a Teferi emblem/Oath). Same goes for Djeru. For example, what does Inexorable Tide bring to the table that Omniscience or Enter the Infinite does not?

Generator Servant is a great card for Narset, as is Ashling's Prerogative.

Mystical Tutor, Personal Tutor, and Enlightened Tutor are pretty important in this type of deck. Narset's ability seems made for Long-Term Plans as well.

Anyway, a list of extra turn spells I would run in addition to what you have:

Temporal Trespass, Walk the Aeons

Extra combat steps are also extremely good with Narset. Some being:

Seize the Day, Fury of the Horde, Relentless Assault, Waves of Aggression, and World at War.

Consider Omniscience and Enter the Infinite, because then you can, say, cast EtI off of Narset's trigger, put Omniscience on the top deck, cast literally any extra combat step card (Fury of the Horde works with 0 mana open), swing Narset again, cast Omniscience, and then cast every single card in your hand for 0 mana cost. With this, Bacon of Tomorrows becomes your top deck card every single turn, resulting in infinite turns in which you can tick up your Planeswalkers and swing with Narset for the victory. With Bacon, all things are possible, after all.

Anyway, long post. Hope it helps, lol.

March 12, 2018 1:25 p.m.

BMHKain says... #12

@PookandPie: Thanks. It really did. One more question; & it IS stupid as a confession: If there was a Superfriends commander that's the closest as one in 5 colors, what would your thoughts be on that? And no, Weaker than Tier 3 won't even fly, & "None" doesn't count as an answer. Sorry. >> Finally, should I put in all 10 of each Dual, Shock, & Fetch for mana, and what else for lands to add?

Just wondering as I might have alternate Ideas. Don't fret; even Rest in Peace & even Cursed Totem will be kept. I just need to find room for Toxic Deluge, & if needed, Decree of Annihilation.

I'll cut Gideon Jura from my walkers though. I'll take that suggestion to mind.

March 13, 2018 3:01 p.m.

BMHKain says... #13

Finally, would Wave of Vitriol be viable in Superfriends? Stupid question, but if what you said about few creatures is true, the only cost would be the casting cost...

March 13, 2018 3:17 p.m.

BMHKain says... #14

Ironically, I can only think of one Commander for the format that's Superfriends cEDH based that would work: Sliver Queen. I'm only referring to 5 colors. Any better ideas?

March 14, 2018 3:03 p.m.

BMHKain says... #15

Actually, Child of Alara might also work...

March 14, 2018 3:07 p.m.

BMHKain says... #16

PookandPie? You still there? I'd like your opinion on all this. I got the primary Counterspells in my list at some point, BTW...

March 15, 2018 8:53 a.m.

PookandPie says... #17

Sorry, I was away for a few days.

Child of Alara isn't bad, but he can't win you the game if that's needed and you would also need a reanimation sub theme to re-use him (if you put him back into the Command Zone, his ability doesn't trigger). That'd be Super Reanimation Friends and I'm not sure you would want to spend the card slots to do that (though, to that end, you could run some reasonably powerful creatures like Notion Thief, reanimate him, and then cast Windfall and Wheel of Fortune or something to mind twist everyone else's hands while you draw 20+ cards.

Sliver Queen is an idea, but I would recommend running her combo cards and viewing the Planeswalkers as a vehicle to draw into her combo pieces. The reason Queenie is even tier 2 is because of her optimized decklist build linked on the Tapped Out tier list- so you're going to want to run some Boonweaver pieces if you're going to roll with her (or her own combo pieces or something. Infinite Slivers is a reasonable fallback plan).

As for Wave of Vitriol and the like, I don't think you would need to bother running it. If the players have decks as strong as you say, they'll be doing t1 Mox Diamond, Mana Crypt, etc., and the like into t2-t4 wins. You'd have to accelerate like crazy for Wave of Vitriol to be a reasonable response, so in that regard just run Nature's Claim, Aura of Silence, Vandalblast and the like to get rid of troublesome artifacts and enchantments.

March 15, 2018 2:12 p.m.

BMHKain says... #18

I see... I guess I'll have to see what options for 5 colors there are that work...

One more thing: for 5 colors, what rocks to run besides Mana Vault, Mana Crypt, Sol Ring, Mox Diamond, Chrome Mox, etc, and what do you think is the ideal land Base? 10 each of the primary duals perhaps? Or less? I'm at a loss...

March 16, 2018 10:14 a.m.

PookandPie says... #19

10 duals/10 shocks/10 fetch and fill out the rest from there depending on the type of deck. Mana Confluence and City of Brass are obvious inclusions too if you need to fill out some more.

For rocks, it depends on the color requirements of the deck. Vault, Crypt, Sol are perfect, and Mox Diamond is one of the best. If you run a fair number of artifacts (like 15 or more) Mox Opal becomes an option. Fellwar Stone is usually pretty solid as well. Beyond that you get Nature's Lore for fixing/ramp, Birds of Paradise, Coalition Relic (3 mana is rough but it can give 2 mana for one big turn), etc.. After that just use the signets of the colors you have the most of, I guess, if you're just in need of color fixing.

March 16, 2018 1:02 p.m.

BMHKain says... #20

Mana Confluence is obviously an easy add anyway. Dunno about City of Brass; can't believe WotC took so long to make a strictly better version. Fellwar Stone seems good for such an identity...

I'll think about the only Bird Green sees as "Natural", lol. While I love Coalition Relic, why the omission of Chromatic Lantern? Giving Fetchlands mana use seems alright; unless I'm missing out on something... >>

BTW, sorry for this huge waste of time, I'm usually unable to control my ambition. ><

March 16, 2018 1:30 p.m.

PookandPie says... #21

I just forgot about Lantern. The more optimized your Mana base gets, the worse lantern gets, and you'll really want to crack your fetches when you're using cards like Brainstorm, Jace, Sensei's Top, tapping the fetches for mana will be the least of your worries because you'll want to keep seeing new cards off these dig effects.

Don't let that dissuade you, though: It's still perfectly reasonable to run even if not entirely optimal, so go for it.

March 16, 2018 2:04 p.m.

redkhan says... #22

So just thought of this guy because of the cEDH sub. What about using Jodah as your commander? You have the 5c identity and you get to cast the higher CMC walkers for an alternative (maybe harder depends on your mana base) cost.

Jodah, Archmage Eternal
Legendary Creature - Human Wizard

You may pay WUBRG rath than pay the mana cost for spells that you cast.


March 16, 2018 4:17 p.m.

BMHKain says... #23

@redkhan: Just checked it out. I might have a new commander if useful... I also might do Tetsuko, who will be an underrated commander with great aggro ideas with some Countermagic to boot. Thanks!

March 16, 2018 6:46 p.m.

BMHKain says... #24

The Dead Walker that never was Returning Alive...

Okay, I got the list formed, & chose Jodah as my commander. Now, from here, I need to make 9 cuts. Hard as heck for me, & my rules for what to remove just makes this harder, most likely. So I have one last favor (Hopefully) PookandPie: What to remove, what else to add, & how to actually use the Walkers and not just the commander as the main thing. Sorry, sir. I at least got something for a Commander now; & it doesn't have to be Esper either. >>


March 16, 2018 10:46 p.m.

BMHKain says... #25

So, PookandPie? What do you suggest for cuts? If you want, I can remove combo Pieces, or what should be removed for ten cuts?

March 17, 2018 7:13 a.m.

BMHKain says... #26

Does anyone want to make any suggestions for cuts down to the 99 for this deck of mine? If so, make note of the posts earlier.

You can find the deck here:

The Dead Walker that never was Returning Alive...

It'll no longer be Ramos based soon, thanks to some promising "Leaks" for Dominaria. Don't want them to be fake either... :/

March 17, 2018 12:02 p.m.

PookandPie says... #27

Suggested cuts:

Clockspinning. It's not bad, but it's 4 Mana to repeatedly add one counter. That's a pretty large amount of Mana for counter manipulation.

Vraska can go. Her ultimate and minus are her only useful abilities, and her plus won't help with cEDH in the slightest.

Dovin Baan can go. His plus is worthless, his minus is good, but his ultimate is also not very good.

I'd cut one more Planeswalker, at least, if I'm being honest.

Diabolic Revelation is too much Mana even if it does get a bunch of cards at once.

Why is Avacyn in the deck? To get with Nahiri's ability? I'm not sure I'm a fan of that line of play- it's a little too cute and oftentimes it's better to have interactive protection than one like Avacyn where people will just Chain of Vapor and do whatever they were going to do anyway.

Part the Waterveil can probably go. It's harder to abuse than the other extra turn spells and I feel like those are leftovers from Narset anyway, though they're still reasonable here.

Then after that maybe cut another Planeswalker or two to finish getting back down to 99. That will still leave you with 18 walkers in your deck.

I'm not entirely sure you have enough Mana sources actually, but I'm stuck on my phone at my in-laws place this weekend so it takes me several times longer to make these posts lol. Try it out, see how your land + ramp situation works for you, and if it isn't as good as you'd have hoped, I'll make more suggestions come Monday.

March 17, 2018 12:23 p.m.

BMHKain says... #28

Sorry if I'm rushing you; I was trying to get help from others while you're away. ><

Alright. Since Vraska is chosen, Venser is out in addition, as a Wincon is involved.

I'll see what to do with the mana sources though. Sorry again.

March 17, 2018 12:34 p.m.

BMHKain says... #29

Alright. Down to 99. The 100 is for the new Teferi, if the Dominaria Spoilers are truly real (There is only art for 2 cards; out of over 100.)

Anyways, we'll talk at stated date. (Not enough Artifacts to warrant Mox Opal yet... Later. :/

March 17, 2018 12:56 p.m.

redkhan says... #30

BMHKain: Wizards confirmed the leak weeks ago at this point. They even released the release notes that go with them.

March 17, 2018 1:20 p.m.

BMHKain says... #31

@redkhan: Oh. My bad then. The problem is that images haven't been officially revealed yet. Oh, here's my problem: Release Date 4/27/18. I'll carry on with that knowledge now. BTW: I'm reworking my Baral deck to be a Tetsu-Ko Umezawa deck. Not cEDH though...

March 17, 2018 2:26 p.m.

BMHKain says... #32

(Sigh...) Okay, PookandPie. It's officially Monday. Do you have any ideas for cuts? I tried to put in [, Archmage Eternal only to fail. So for now, I need at least two more cuts. In addition, I'm thinking of doing a Spellslinger Deck for Firesong and Sunspeaker. Any thoughts on this commander that's somehow NOT based on Aggro?

March 19, 2018 10:59 a.m.

BMHKain says... #33

My bad, I meant Jodah, Archmage Eternal for Superfriends...

March 19, 2018 11 a.m.

PookandPie says... #34

For added cuts, drop Oath of Gideon (it's not terrible but only one additional counter isn't that big of a deal), and Kiora, the Crashing Wave. She's... all right, but not incredible.

For Firesong and Sunspeaker, I like the idea of running about 35 lands, 12 or so mana rocks (Fire Diamond and the like), and then cards like Earthquake, Rolling Earthquake, Brightflame, Deflecting Palm, etc.. Treasonous Ogre will be a good addition too. Stuff like Test of Endurance and the like would be awesome with a Commander that can gain silly amounts of life from a single Blasphemous Act or Star of Extinction.

I wouldn't bother with a lot of straight up "Gain life" spells. Survival Cache may work, since it can pretty easily function as a draw engine + Bolt something each turn.

Though, that's a deck steeped pretty heavy in creature hate so if your group is super competitive and not running creatures... then I have no idea.

March 19, 2018 1:55 p.m.

BMHKain says... #35

Thanks. I already have some stuff outside of just burn & healing planned. Might as well throw in Sundial of the Infinite for extra turn loops. Planning to throw in stuff like Rebuff the Wicked & Red Elemental Blast at some point...

To protect my Non-Perms. Maybe even the twin clerics themselves...

Finally, this'll sound stupid (AND IS.), but would it be allowed to swap staples like such rocks like, say, Mana Crypt or any card really, just as a poor man's option to save cash? It would really suck if I have to obtain such staples a second time (Yes, I'm a cheap (censored)... Dx

March 20, 2018 10:21 a.m.

BMHKain says... #36

In fact, I wonder what you think of these as alts in case I can't target a creature: Price of Progress Acidic Soil & Molten Psyche


March 20, 2018 11:43 a.m.

BMHKain says... #37

Boros' last chance to shine with success...

This is the Deck for the twin Minotaurs I'm making... Still WIP. Should I add a Blood Moon, or, maybe add more lands, but what? Really want to keep Galvanoth for quick casts, & Runechanter's Pike for one shot kills with the Half Cleric, Half Bull Legend...

Any ideas for enchantments? Still only have one...

March 20, 2018 1:41 p.m.

BMHKain says... #38

Still there? My three Commander Decks are nearing completion. Just added two cards in my Jodah, Archmage Eternal thus need to remove 2, need seven cuts for Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive, & might want to find some white in Firesong and Sunspeaker; & some enchantments. Ideas? & any responses from my other comments?

March 21, 2018 10:13 a.m.

PookandPie says... #39

Samite Ministration may be worth a look for Firesong and Sunspeaker. Gains infinite life using the same rule that makes Spiritualize work.

Azor's Gateway  Flip would probably be incredible in the deck.

Aetherflux Reservoir seems to good to not run, and in the same vein there's Test of Endurance and Felidar Sovereign. Don't know how cool with those you are, but I foresee casting Blasphemous Act and gaining 100+ being reasonable win conditions when combined with the above.

Basilisk Collar also seems silly levels of good since your Commander bolts every time you gain life.

Dualcaster Mage and Eldrazi Displacer seem waaaaay too cute to work well. Maybe just try Pyromancer's Goggles in their place? Getting the job done in one card instead of two lower cost ones is nice, and Goggles even adds mana for you to use in your instant/sorcery spells.

I noticed you're not using Blasphemous Act, as well. I'd at least run it, too.

No Swords to Plowshares seems like a mistake, as well.

Potential cuts:

Glorious End. I get it, I do. But it's not repeatable and in order to not lose you need Angel's Grace or Sundial. It seems bad to have a 1 time use, "Here's hoping I don't lose" card that wholly relies on other cards in order to not play kingmaker and lose anyway (and the frustration of losing to a Nature's Claim or something on your Sundial with Glorious End on the stack would be hilarious). I'd just run straight up removal in this slot.

Venser's Journal seems super mediocre. It's just mild passive lifegain, for which I believe you can do far better than waste a slot on that 5 mana artifact.

Runechanter's Pike seems unnecessary.

I'd personally recommend adding a few more lands. Your mana curve isn't super high or anything but in 3 playtest hands I couldn't even cast the Commander without drawing multiple mana rocks (2-3) because there just weren't enough lands. Your deck's acmc is 2.55, but you run the same number of lands I do in Arcum, which is 1.86.

I'll have to check the Tetsuko deck in a little bit. I don't actually have much experience with that Commander though I've strangely seen people talk about him a lot in the last two weeks lol.

March 21, 2018 3:57 p.m.

PookandPie says... #40

Mmmkay, apparently I was thinking of Tetsuo Umezawa.

I've been confused at the card's sudden popularity for a week.

March 21, 2018 4:02 p.m.

BMHKain says... #41

Very well. Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive wasn't meant for cEDH anyway. Anywho, I'll see about this... Can't believe I started the "Tetsuko-chan" train before it started... XP

March 22, 2018 3:59 p.m.

BMHKain says... #42

That said, Now I'm 11 cards over on my Firesong and Sunspeaker deck. any cuts there? Also added some for my Superfriends deck to best fit Jodah, Archmage Eternal...

Any ideas to cut for either? The former needs 100, the latter needs 98.

March 23, 2018 12:31 p.m.

BMHKain says... #43

PookandPie? Still there? I now need to reduce the amount of Boros' last chance to shine with success... & The Dead Walker that never was Returning Alive... to 100 & 98 respectively. Any ideas for cuts? Just wondering if you're still around...

March 28, 2018 10:07 a.m.

PookandPie says... #44

Sure thing: For the Boros deck, I'd cut:

Lapse of Certainty. It's cute, but it appears like it's going to be too cute considering the sheer number of expensive X spells you run.

Urza's Rage. This card was great when I was younger, but it's usability is significantly lower in multiplayer and it seems odd to pay 12 mana to deal 10 to something when Banefire exists, let alone things like Blasphemous Act and Star of Extinction.

What does Braid of Fire do? It gives you red mana for instants on your upkeep, but you have no real high cost instants. It's not like that mana stays in your mana pool into your precombat main phase so you can cast a big X sorcery with it. The only thing it's really good for is untapping Grim Monolith or Mana Vault, but I don't see you running Voltaic Key just for that purpose so it's one of those, "Synergistic" combo cards that doesn't really have that great of an impact even when the cards that make it useful are brought together unless significant time has passed (Orrery + Braid + X spell), and all the rest of the time it's just mediocre.

Manabarbs seems terrible. This is for CEDH, yes? There's only one deck I know of that cares about tapping lands repeatedly to go infinite, and that's Worldgorger Dragon combo decks. Otherwise, you'll just see people casting spells to get Protean Hulk, Doomsday, Food Chain, etc., and lands aren't going to enter the equation. It wrecks no one, the card will largely be useless (it will wrack up damage on opponents but it's not like you're Gisela who can use this card to push into the red zone) unless this is a meta choice of some kind.

Is Galvanoth really worth using a card slot on? You have 31 spells it could hit, so roughly 1/3rd of the time it'll reveal something worthwhile (not counting the X spells for obvious reasons), but that's still one in three reveals. Two out of three times his ability triggers, it won't do anything. Meaning, he needs support from Sensei's Top to even do that reliably, lol, in which case you could replace him with a mana rock or cut him altogether and get the same benefit, really.

Fateful Showdown seems kind of mediocre in most cases (7 card combo or not lol).

Elixir of Immortality also seems a little useless. It lets you reshuffle your instants into the library after Sunforging, but you should aim to wrap the game up without needing to do that.

Mirage Mirror doesn't seem all that useful. 9/10 times it's going to copy a mana rock as you get very little value by copying your enchantments or creatures.

Citadel of Pain is practically useless unless it's anti-control deck tech, which if it is, Defense Grid does the job far, far better. It also somewhat nonbos with Mana Web. It'll only get 1-2 damage here or there, and players in CEDH will have the good mana rocks available so it's not like they can't just tap their lands on their turn and then counter your spells using their plethora of mana rocks on your turn.

Karmic Justice seems slow, and won't help against any exile spell (and some of the most commonly played removal spells in CEDH, like Swords/Path, Anguished Unmaking, Toxic Deluge, etc., don't destroy). It interacts with Beast Within, but that's among the few it'll help against (though I guess it helps against those tier 2 sweeper tribal stax decks fwiw).

Those are my most obvious cuts and my reasoning behind each.

For the rest of the cuts, you need to decide which direction you're going to take this deck in. Scepter + Final Fortune + Sundial is a cute combo, but it's just that: Cute. In colors with very few tutors and card advantage, a 3 card combo that doesn't utilize the Commander is going to be difficult to assemble. Notwithstanding, only one of these cards is even remotely useful on its own (being the Scepter), with Final Fortune and Sundial being either terrible or useless if drawn alone. That's why most CEDH decks don't even bother with this combo, is because 2/3 of the cards are really, really bad on their own. Your goal should be to minimize the card slots utilized by the combos in the deck, or dedicate card slots in the deck to the decks that stop you (or cards that stop other decks if they're faster).

For example, consider Chant of Vitu-Ghazi or Hallow for infinite life with Firesong and Sunspeaker (Hallow needs you to target Sunspeaker while he's on the stack, though, and then play another spell to trigger the second ability once he resolves, as per rule 400.7b, this works). That + Aetherflux Reservoir is a lot more reasonable for a win condition than Final Fortune on Scepter + Infinite Sundial (which requires 3 cards, none of which are your Commander). This takes 1 less card slot than the Final Fortune combo, and while it is still a 3 card combo, one of those 3 cards is your Commander. It's slower than FF + Scepter + Sundial (which could be done as early as t3 with minimal acceleration), but the odds of you putting this together without the God of the Topdeck assisting you is extremely slim, so you can't call it consistent.

I don't know why you dropped Aetherflux Reservoir but I do feel it should have stayed in. Your Commander makes it ridiculously easy to gain life, and you can snap kill players that might threaten you (let alone win outright if you resolve Blasphemous Act/Star of Extinction/Earthquake/Disaster). That's pretty huge.

Orim's Chant is not as good as Silence on your combo turn. Chant only stops one opponent, Silence stops all of them. That's why a lot of CEDH combo decks in white run Silence instead of Chant. I would make that swap, honestly.

Also, if you've got Mana Web, run Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth in your mana base. That'll force multicolor decks to tap down in one main phase only, basically (because otherwise someone could tap their Ancient Tomb to play a rock on their turn, then tap their Underground Sea to Spell Pierce one of your spells on your turn).

I don't have any more easy cuts and this took me longer than I care to admit to type up, so I'm going to jump off here for now. Hopefully this mess helps, lol. I'd be more than happy to further justify any cuts I recommended though.

March 28, 2018 3:10 p.m.

BMHKain says... #45

Several things.

  1. The trigger ability actually doesn't loop according to a MTG Salvation Forum post, so I dunno if this can be viable as a combo...

  2. Aetherflux Reservoir was removed due to it being too "casual" according to another user. If it's nowhere such, I'll put it back in. I'm starting to believe that one person is ruining the deck by making poor decisions for cuts...

  3. How Worldgorger is useful I'm unsure. But sure, I'm put the abominable thing in.

  4. Fair enough. The Final Fortune combo will cease to exist in this deck...

March 29, 2018 10:29 a.m.

BMHKain says... #46

Also, some Melancholic news. I'm finally giving up my Superfriends deck as it seems like it would be a hopeless case. Even Jodah wouldn't help things in such a way... Maybe I'll remake the deck again, but as a "cBrawl" deck. I'll make other decks of this meta in addition. Now, what to choose for my next project: Mayael the Anima, or Jeleva, Nephalia's Scourge?

I'm pondering as I feel the defeat...

March 29, 2018 11:07 a.m.

BMHKain says... #47

Finally, what combos for Worldgorger Dragon in Boros colors? Unsure about Codex Shredder...

March 29, 2018 12:33 p.m.

BMHKain says... #48

Got 99 in my Boros Deck. PookandPie, do you know any combo pieces for Worldgorger Dragon? I'll try and cut one other if you recommend two, and so on...

March 29, 2018 1:39 p.m.

PookandPie says... #49

That triggered ability post you're referencing is most likely Spiritualize, which doesn't work because of the delayed trigger, correct?

Chant of Vitu Ghazi doesn't have that same problem as it is the white instant that is the source of life gain (though this could change with the Dominaria rules update). For Spiritualize, the life gain is from a delayed triggered ability. For Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, the life gain is from a spell that was on the stack (in the same manner in which Deflecting Palm is the source of damage even after its left the stack).

Actually, I found this via Google, so I'll link it here, as it's talking about this subject. Note that the guy explaining it works is an L2:

AEtherflux Reservoir definitely isn't too casual- Storm decks in Commander regularly run it (Grixis, Yidris, on occasion, Kess). While you're not a Storm deck, your deck was already going to rely on your Commander a bit (why build Boros otherwise, right), and basically any X spell will put you in good position to shotgun each opponent right out of the game.

No, no, no, Worldgorger wasn't a recommendation for you. It was me explaining that the only decks that really tap their lands repeatedly to the point where Barbs would be backbreaking are decks featuring Worldgorger combo (they infinitely loop their lands coming in untapped. I use this loop to kill with Breya for example). I don't even think you can do Worldgorger in WR without it being super convoluted (the most straightforward way is to put Animate Dead on Worlgorger with it and another creature in the graveyard).

For Mayael vs Jeleva: You interested in Grixis Storm? That's one that performs quite well in CEDH, though it takes some practicing with the deck (it's not as difficult to play as Doomsday but it is up there in complexity).

March 29, 2018 1:53 p.m.

BMHKain says... #50

Sadly this won't be cEDH. OHHHH... Watashi no BAKA ga ne (Horrible Japanese on my behalf... It's supposed to state I'm an idiot.), very well, removing the dragon from here. This in turn gives me two empty slots. An X Burn in addition, as well as some other tech. I wonder if anyone was right with returning the Helix in again...

March 29, 2018 2:07 p.m.

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