Stingy with +1's
The Blind Eternities forum
Posted on March 6, 2016, 6:32 p.m. by kamarupa
I'm convinced that people are stingy and/or funny with their +1's.
Here's a breakdown of what I think I'm seeing:
1) People don't like to be the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd to +1 a deck, especially if the deck doesn't have much of a description. I think this is because, subconsciously, they don't want to be wrong. That is, since no one else has +1ed, there's the implication the deck isn't good, and no one wants to endorse a deck that doesn't deserve it. However, once a deck has achieved around 10 or so +1's or more, people are more likely to give a +1, even if they aren't impressed, simply because they want to agree with consensus, and be "in the know" on what is and isn't good. Of course, all of this is superficial, and has no bearing on how a deck actually performs.
2) People think their deck is better, and since their deck doesn't have [m]any +1's, the deck they're looking at doesn't deserve a +1. Which, if accurate, is rather ironic. If everyone acted that way, almost no +1's would be given, as there's always a deck to beat any other.
3) A deck is solid, and has a clear description outlining the strengths and goals, but the creator hasn't gone to the trouble of embedding slick images and formatting text, etc. IE, it doesn't look as good as it is. Marketing is a powerful thing, and a well designed presentation of a build should be celebrated, but the lack of effort in presentation doesn't mean a build isn't worth a +1.
4) A deck is solid, but boring. IE, it doesn't employ a sick combo or use a new strategy. Viewers don't have any particular issue with the deck, but don't feel motivated to comment or +1. They simply look, think, "eh" and move on. In my mind, if you can't think of a way to improve a deck, a +1 [often] seems warranted.
5) A deck is a good example of archtype, but it's one the viewer doesn't like. The problem with this position is that +1's, at least in my mind, aren't a popularity contest, but a way of saying, "this deck works pretty well."
So. I try to make it a point to +1 decks that seem decently well thought out, even when it has no +1's already, lacks an intense description/formatting, even when it might not be the most competitive, even when it might be a bit boring or when I don't like to play it myself. I mean, it's not like +1's turn into Black Lotuss or something. For me at least, getting a +1 gives me a little boost, and "bolters" (pun intended) my sense of community.
I'd love to hear other people's thoughts on the subject. And I hope I've encourage people to be a little less stingy with their +1's.
vampirelazarus says... #3
Ok.
This really isnt the place for that. The Tappedout subforum is for site issues like bugs, not complaining about not getting +1's.
March 6, 2016 6:35 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #4
This seems more Social than anything else. Or maybe General?
March 6, 2016 6:44 p.m.
VampireArmy says... #5
I think you're taking that score feature a bit too personally.
March 6, 2016 6:45 p.m.
I'm sorry I posted in the wrong subforum.
I'm not complaining about +1's on my own builds here, I'm trying to examine the rational people use in how they use this site.
You know, who doesn't want feedback on their build? While people's comments can help someone make improvements, a +1 tells the builder someone else thinks they've done a good job, which, as positive feedback, encourages them to be more active, to comment on other's decks and the like. I mean, if people are only here to receive and not give, a lot of the site's functions are sort of lost.
And like I said, it's not as if +1ing a deck is going to hurt you somehow or is difficult. And clearly, at least some people like to get them. But I think people don't like to give them. And that strikes me as curious or "stingy"
March 6, 2016 6:54 p.m.
Want a +1? Build a janky ass fun deck. Competitive netdeck builds won't get you +1's but creative decks will. Who cares anyways? lol
+1 for this thread. Is that better?
March 6, 2016 7:10 p.m.
If no one cares, why have them at all? I mean, clearly, the # of +1's doesn't actually make a deck any better than it is, right?
What if when you got a +1, your deck got deckcycled? That would make sense to me. That's basically what happens on Facebook when you "Like" something.
March 6, 2016 7:15 p.m.
Point #1 I don't feel is valid as the +1's are only visible to the deck's creator, and only then if they have an upgraded account. They could be "wrong" (which would be completely subjective) but no one would know but the creator so there is no social stigma involved.
March 6, 2016 7:23 p.m.
ducttapedeckbox says... #10
waits for OTN and his meme
This is under the assumption that people base their deck's success on +1's. I generally don't +1 anymore because they don't mean much to me. I'd rather have someone leave a one-line comment, possibly asking a question.
March 6, 2016 7:39 p.m.
Let's face it. If you brew a deck or tweak a known deck and post it her but nobody +1's it; that is your sign that it sucks and you should take it apart. If that happens a couple times in a row then that is your hint that you are a bad magic player.
Please put your cards for sale on eBay at 10%-25% tcg average value and post the link here. But first, tell me what all your best eternal staples are first so I can save them and put them to glorious use myself (or speculate on them and make a killing on it some time from now).
J/k
I think people are definitely funny with their +1s. Just look at what some of the top rated decks are.
I think that all the cases of stinginess you mention could characterize some people sometimes. Another case might be that +1s are given to a "deserving person" rather than a "deserving deck list / description".
I think for some people that is precisely what it is (like so many things often are): a popularity contest. I don't feel that holds true for everyone or anyone all the time.
I had a friend try this site out and ditch it because of the echo chamber he found himself in.
The actual tourney winning variant of my main modern deck got ignored but a stupidly expensive version with supercool marketing doubled my +1s within a week.
People can get competitive and territorial with their +1s sometimes.
I wouldn't take +1s seriously. I throw them around like candy at a parade myself. I use them to show friendliness and positive intent to help promote conversation. Sometimes that works better than others.
However, comments are worth something. On the other hand, I don't like advertising exactly what I've got to opponents and thieves so if comments die down, there isn't enough incentive for me to make a deck public instead of private.
I have been riding on my deck-building over the past 5 years in a new playgroup. My old playgroup was more competitive and it kept me going back to the drawing board quite a bit. I have yet to lose in the new playgroup so I don't have an incentive to make changes. Thus there is nothing new to talk about and therefore I keep my decks on private
which may help keep the winning streak going, actually.
March 6, 2016 7:41 p.m.
Well, somebody had to.
Ultimately the thing about +1s is that they are arbitrary. They don't indicate how good a deck is, just how popular it is. And on T/O, people are looking for:
A combo deck that doesn't employ combos that uses big fat creatures to midrange win with an aggro stragey on turn 3 that is tier 1 modern playable for under $100 with a cool, interesting commander.
March 6, 2016 7:49 p.m. Edited.
lemmingllama says... #13
Honestly, I never +1. And that's because if I like a deck or have something that I want to talk about for that deck, I just use the comment field. Comments are way more useful than a +1, and I'm just as proud of my decks with 3 +1's as those with 100+.
The only real benefit of a +1 over a comment is that it makes it more likely for others to actually give your deck a once over when you deckcycle. Still, I've found that a funny name will do just as much as +1s.
March 6, 2016 7:50 p.m.
guessling don't you think sometimes that's just likely random? another time your deck might take off, the other may have just already had more momentum at the time yours was peaking (or something). it doesn't mean the site hates yours.
I have heard frustrations in the past by people who hated getting +1s because it was vague and they wanted a more specified reaction. but i like reviewing this topic. i think another cool metric is how many folders your deck gets added to.
March 6, 2016 8:03 p.m.
I don't think the site hates my decks. I just don't have new changes to contemplate within the last 6 months. So then the only thing I would be doing by making decks public would be helping people beat me or know which deck has the Sensei's Divining Top right now.
I thought at one point: switch jeleva for narset? If I decided to do that then I would make public prototypes to get feedback. But then I was like "naw, I'm blowing people out with jor kadeen". If I was still trying to beat my bro's marath deck it would be different.
I am still thinking about buying the updates for my main modern deck but that's not a good idea with possible bannings coming down soon. There are no changes to what I was settling on back in October so there seems likely to be nothing to talk about at this moment.
Also, my bro's latest deck for modern is beatable by my norin sisters fun/casual deck. There is no need to pull out the stops with something more competitive or tweak any boards in that case.
March 6, 2016 8:15 p.m.
Honestly I would much prefer a commment left on my deck, as would most users (I think at least). The fact that people people leave comments means they actually had a think about the deck and are trying to offer advice. Whether or not the advice is applicable, people appreciate the effort.
But it also comes down to motive. Some people are just out there to get a +1. They don't want advice, they just want their internet points. More than once I have seen posts in the deck help forums that are just "Check out and upvote my deck" with a link and that's it. But I honestly find that I'm not going to give the deck any attention, because the deck owner just wants some fame or internet points (which can be cashed in for real value, everybody knows that).
March 6, 2016 8:31 p.m.
canterlotguardian says... #17
guessling you mean the Echo Chamber he found himself in?
March 6, 2016 8:53 p.m.
FAMOUSWATERMELON says... #18
Ideas for alternative +1s:
Number of different people who commented
Number of folders
Number of times playtested
Number of times downloaded
All of these would probably be more reflective of how the deck actually is. But hey, maybe a simple click is all that's needed.
March 6, 2016 9:09 p.m. Edited.
RoarMaster says... #19
I only +1 a deck if it is built just about as good or better than I would have built the deck. I also dont +1 'solved' competitive decks such as merfolk.dec, ect ect.
March 6, 2016 9:40 p.m.
Those are some really good ideas, FAMOUSWATERMELON! Perhaps it would be worthwhile to put together a few ideas about how decks might be better ranked, as an open group?
Problems to solve:
What's the purpose of the +1?
How might deck stats better show the quality of any given deck?
How might the site's features improve the quality and likeliness of feedback?
March 6, 2016 10:11 p.m.
I'm here all of the time and I practically never +1 decks. I don't care about formats other than EDH and its rare as all hell for me to see a deck that I like or amuses me. I also know that +1s don't really mean much, so I guess I don't think about them too much.
March 6, 2016 11:18 p.m.
ThisIsBullshit says... #22
enpc your description of what people want to look for freakin' nailed it.
I don't usually upvote because I just don't care, I'd rather have someone leave actual feedback on my deck than to just +1 and move on.
March 6, 2016 11:52 p.m.
The question isn't whether anyone would prefer a +1 over a comment. It's whether we'd prefer a +1 to no response whatsoever.
What if we could +2. And that was code for, you know, #2. Sorry. It's late here.
I think decks with +1s are more likely to be viewed, and therefore more likely to be commented on. Which seems sort of undesired - if people post decks for feedback, I'd assume the goal would be to have people comment on decks more or less equally.
Which is to say, I think the +1 does have some effect on the attention a deck receives, as do comments. It seems to me, if a deck is worth commenting on, and the creator has addressed any major concerns within their budget and meta, it would be a kindness to bestow the ever desired +1 as a means of encouraging others to view and comment on the deck.
I imagine, as I've already seen, people will say I'm making an Emrakul out of an Ornithoptor, but I'd say 1000 Ornithopter wings can make a hurricane. It has power, I'd argue, in the broad user base of this site, but that power is marred by skewed representation and indifference.
It sounds to me a lot of people think the +1 is basically a dead button, but only a few have actually suggested any ideas on how to fix or replace it.
March 7, 2016 12:46 a.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #24
kamarupa, instead of continuing this discussion here, please go through the links presented in the feature suggestion section of the bug reports sticky that is on this forum. Everything has been pretty much discussed there.
Upvotes are primarily for the ability for users to search for the most popular/successful decks on this site. Our userbase is primarily made up of younger individuals who wish to have fun without wasting their money on cardboard. Thus, budget janky decks get upvotes over anything else.
End thread.
March 7, 2016 1:36 a.m.
No, I don't disagree with what he wrote there. One of the paradoxes is that the more +1s a deck has, the more it begins to attract interest. However, logically, it's the decks WITHOUT +1s that need more help than the decks that have them. Sure we all like to have a look at what's popular but to keep the community progressing and moving forwards we also need to take the time to look at things that might have received very little attention before.
I don't +1 decks very often at all. I prefer to leave an actual comment because I feel that that is more useful and I spend time on a few occasions every week where I purposefully leave feedback on modern decks with low +1 counts and low comment counts.
The +1 metric is fine for showing appreciation but not useful for constructive feedback and I think a lot of people lean towards the latter and not the former.
March 7, 2016 4:32 a.m.
If you are interested in lots of +1s, try featuring your deck. I've only done it a few times because it actually costs money, but every time I do I get up-votes.
I used to be bothered by how miserly people are with up-votes, but after all the time I've spent on the site I've realized that:
1. I'm never going to meet a single person from it, so who cares if nobody thinks it's competitive, or cool, or cohesive?
2. It's worth it just enjoying my decks all by myself. I'm not any less proud of my tiny leaders decks just because the format is unpopular.
I do make it a point to be liberal with my up-votes so that others don't feel "un-encouraged" the way I did though. I up-vote almost every deck I view, even more so if they have no votes.
March 7, 2016 7:03 a.m.
Something I've been thinking about on and off, you know what's more awesome than upvotes? Good card suggestions. Because it means that you're giving back, helping with others' decks. And I find that it has helped me with my own deck building. And I know its just one way to give back to the community, so I dont want just focus on it, but it is a good starting place.
March 7, 2016 7:41 a.m.
Femme_Fatale - ok, I read all of it. A lot of really good stuff there, but I think there are some nuances here that aren't there, and while related, I don't see the discussions as being identical or as approaching these issues from the same angle.
Wait, how does one "search" decks based on upvotes? I don't see that option in "Advanced Search," not that I'm particularly interested in looking at the most upvoted decks, but maybe the least upvoted/commented on.
I also feel a little slighted by your "End thread." - I get that there's a lot of stuff already hashed out, but I think it's fair to say your insistence that this discussion not continue seems a little, well, overbearing. Like, does it hurt you somehow? I'm not trying to offend anyone or step on anyone's toes here, just looking to explore some of the psychology behind this site's user interaction.
I also noticed the thread you mentioned is closed, so pointing me there and saying there is nothing more to add is basically saying I should shut and leave the site altogether.
I do that, too, K34 - leave comments and upvotes on almost every deck I view, as well as a card suggestions. I think about how I've felt when someone comments on my deck but doesn't ever +1 - like the commenter is kind of lording knowledge over me, that even when I follow their advice, the deck still isn't "good" by their standards. Sure, fine, get over it. I'm not sitting in dark room crying, but it has made me think about how people use or don't use the entire site, what arbitary rules they create for themselves here, etc.
Does anyone know if there's a primer on user interaction? I'm happy to read what's already been hashed out, but navigating the bazillion threads here is rather daunting to me.
March 7, 2016 11:41 a.m.
In deck search, there is an option to sort by. It defaults to date, however you can also sort by views and score. Setting the sort by to descending will get the highest ranked decks first.
March 7, 2016 4:56 p.m.
Femme_Fatale says... #30
ChiefBell, that's what the deckcycle section is for. Most of the decks that do not have upvotes that need help are there. There's also the "need help" category.
... yeaGO, we need a "need help" section on the Deck Builder (deckcycle) page. It's on the front page but not the deckcycle one. Also, how about renaming that section to "Need Help" instead of "Help!"
The biggest problem is not the upvotes in regards to help, but either users not having a good understanding of how to get help for their deck beyond "I need help with this deck. Thanks." Or most of our userbase not willing to spend their time helping other users with their decks. The Helper Rank and "Good Suggestions" systems are good incentives, but not entirely enough. Again, our general userbase seems to be a contributing cause to the above.
In short, decks that need help and them not getting help is no reason to change how the upvotes work, a feature primarily for successful decks to be easily searched. Instead we need to focus on giving people incentives to help other decks, and to put the "need for help" on the fore-front of this site's focus. Let the feature queue be primarily focused for those who wish to get upvotes, but all other features on this site directed towards users who need help on their decks.
The disorganized forum doesn't really help either.
March 7, 2016 5:04 p.m.
It's always a good idea to pin the blame on the users instead of trying to discuss a structural solution.
March 7, 2016 5:30 p.m.
And I didnt say +1's needed to be changed at all. I said that they result in unintended consequences. I think we need to look carefully at how decks that get few views and comments get more exposure BUT I dont think this means "the +1 system is busted and needs changing". Sure there are problems, but thats fine.
GlistenerAgent says... #2
Personally, I don't +1 decks because I'm more interested in what you're doing and random site elements don't matter. If you ask me for deck help, giving it a +1 is not involved.
"they don't want to be wrong"
I don't understand how there are negative repercussions to liking a deck and showing that you like it.
Reason #2 comes nowhere close to what reasonable people think.
Reason #4 is probably the actual reason for people who care about giving/receiving +1s.
March 6, 2016 6:35 p.m.