Okay hi there! I like what you've got going so far, but I'll give you what I know that works really well. First off, Mana Leak is an amazing counterspell, that can very easily replace some of your current single targeting counterspells like Essence Scatter. Also, Spell Snare can catch people off guard, whether you use it early to get their Lightning Bolt, AEther Vial, or Liliana of the Veil or later against a Mana Leak or something where they don't have enough mana to pay it, and you only have to leave on open. Next, some removal, Detention Sphere comes to mind right away because of how useful it is in general. It's just a great card, this could replace either counterspells, bounce cards, or removal in general that you have now. It's a very solid card. I'd say you'd want 2 of them. Condemn is another great card for getting rid of their creatures. If you're against aggro, it's easy to play and if you're against control it gets rid of big creatures without too many issues. Next up in line is Spreading Seas, this card is great for control, because if you go early you can mess with the opponent's mana base, if they're not playing blue they're probably not going to be thankful for you annihilating their mana source. Also very relevant against all the eldrazi decks out there now. Not to mention, at worst, you draw a card, which isn't amazing but hey, it's not terrible.
I think we're going to need to focus in on some control wincons. Don't get me wrong because Brimaz is my favorite card, but I don't think it's entirely useful for this deck. Wall of Omens is great, big blocker without losing a draw. A great potential wincon though could be Sun Titan who is quite strong. Another one that is used a decent amount for Azorius decks, is Elspeth, Sun's Champion whom, having just a couple in the deck can make a strong board presence while also being able to eliminate one if necessary. I personally think you don't need the walkers you have now, and instead use the Elspeth.
I'm sorry for the brief continuation of my comment but I kinda' have to go haha so I'ma just post some really good cards that are either cheap or expensive just to give you an idea: Kitchen Finks, Snapcaster Mage, Supreme Verdict, Flickerwisp, Gideon Jura, Dragonlord Ojutai, Path to Exile, Serum Visions, Sphinx's Revelation
Hoped some if this may have helped and ask questions! I'll be able to post more either later or tomorrow!!
February 22, 2016 7:59 p.m.
1st off, thanks for the help. 2nd cards that you suggested that I like are Serum Visions,Path to Exile,Supreme Verdict,Gideon Jura,Elspeth, Sun's Champion,Detention Sphere...However my concern is with Mana Leak. Have you personally used it before? I have chosen the spells that I have because they can't be blocked by anything other than a counter and retain their potency at all stages of the game...I don't know that can be said about Mana Leak(also i really do apologize if im coming off rather dickish-as that is not my intent)...however I do think that Condemn is a fantastic alternative to Essence Scatter I will edit the deck and include some of the suggested cards as they are quite excellent. Could you continue to hep evaluate each revision? If so thanks a ton also as a rule of thumb could you please suggest cards that are rather cheap as i will never ever spend so much money on someting like snapcaster mage. So far thanks your insight has been immensely useful :)
February 22, 2016 8:35 p.m.
Do you know how exactly Detention Sphere works? as in particular this situation:I already have a Detention Sphere on the field exiling something and i have another in my hand can i cast the second to target a different card? and when it says i exile all permanents with the same name does that affect their library, hand, grave, as well as the field? thanks again
February 22, 2016 8:55 p.m.
with Gideon Jura can you explain how his 1st and 3rd abilities work together(if they do thanks)
February 22, 2016 9 p.m.
A good rule to follow when playing control is you don't want to lose card advantage.
With cards like Unsummon you sure do get their biggets threat off of the board, but you are now down 1 card, while your opponent is still in posession of the creature.
Sure you can counter it once he casts it again. But then you have used to 2 cards to get rid of 1 of his.
this kind of goes agaisnt what control is trying to accomplish, which is to grind unltil you have gained enough advantage to take over the game.
So i suggest you stick to using white for removal, and blue for counters and card draw.
February 22, 2016 9 p.m.
February 22, 2016 9:03 p.m.
Sunbrosoulaire - You may only use 1 of your planeswalkers abilities each turn under normal circumstances, but even is situations where you get to actitave both, (like with the ability of The Chain Veil, Gideon Jura's third ability will only be active until your turn ends, thus rendering the two with no inharrent interactions.
But let's say you by some rediculous means manage to find a way to activate your planeswalkers ability during your opponents turn. This is what would happen:
Your opponents creatures will be forced to attack Gidion while he's a creature. (Note: He's still a planeswalker as well).
While a permenent is both a planeswalker and a creature simoultaniously, it will die to anything that would kill that permanent as one of those permanet types. Meaning that if Gideon Jura hadn't had the ability to prevent damage, he would be destroyed by either his thoughness or his loyality counters reaching 0. But since this is generally done through damage, this shouldn't be a threat as long you aren't up against cards like Skullcrack.
Instead what will happen is that your oppenents creature will fail to assign damage to gideon.
Gideon, however, can still assign damage of his own.
This is where ot gets tricky, because just being attacked as a planeswalker doesn't mean Gideon deals damage to the attcking creature, (as far as I know), as he's not blocking that creature.
but he can, being a creature himslef, independently block one of the creatures attacking him.
He will deal his 6 damage to the creature he blocks and 0 damage to the rest, which will also deal 0 damage to him, it being prevented.
(Note also that if a planeswalker has the ability "indestructible" damage will still remove loyality counters from it. Not that it has anything to do with Gideon Jura)
February 22, 2016 9:26 p.m.
Kjartan thanks for clearing that up. Will definately not be using gideon as thts the case. The other two are way more helpful atm and even then im not sure about keeping both thanks for helping me understand the mechanics better and with the process of elimination :)
February 22, 2016 9:35 p.m.
All of the walkers you have left are quite good, and it really comes down to personal prefference, but I prefer Gideon Jura over both of them actually.
Narset Transcendent has a good chance at getting you some value throughout the game, and is somewhat hard to deal with do to her high amount of loyalty, but she offers no emidiate control options, and can't really help you get back into the game.
Elspeth, Sun's Champion is definately worth her cost at 6 mana which is a rare case in modern. Her first ability protects you really well and is also a great finisher. Her second ability is not as god as it looks, but it's still really playable. And even though you shouldn't value a planeswalker based on it's ultimate, even though her ult isn't good, her protective nature makes it easy to get. However, when yo do, you are probably already winning.
Gideon Jura - His first ability, like Elspeth's, is very powerfull, and great to protect you, however, he's not as good at protecting himslef, you can't use it to win the game, and it doesn't stack up the same way her does. But his other two abilities are way better than hers in my opion, (consdering their mana cost, and loyality count).
finding a tapped creature is not as rare as finding a creature with power 4 or more.
Him being a creature for free, requires no grinding, can be used as a wincon when the board is empty.
February 22, 2016 9:59 p.m.
Kjartan thanks for your help with all of this. As of right now I am set on keeping Narset and elspeth for my walkers. I realize that I can only use 1 planeswalkers ability a turn, however this isn't a problem with elspeth ,as you mentioned, she is overall great card I plan on using her 1st ability the majority of the time she is out until I can nearly guarantee victory then use her last ability for the finish. With Narset she is there for her first and last ability. To me she has amazing potential in the way of her coming out on turn 4 she can cycle my cards when needs and the main bit is she can make my opponent only summon creatures... That is amazing against too many decks. That affect on its own can really shut someone down bc by that time my opponent can only cast one creature spell and nearly all my spells can destroy, counter, kill whatever my opponent wants to put out which is invaluable, doubly so when I face another control deck :). With Gideon I only really see a meat shield and to me my planeswalkers are already fantastic at doing that(Narset can be a chump blocker after I get her last ability out) and the other summons an infinite wall of minions.
February 22, 2016 11:06 p.m.
Hey Sunbrosoulaire, hopefully I have some helpful ideas for you! I love this color combination, and I'm a fan of control decks, so I'm excited to see your list. I've drafted some ideas in several forms, but hopefully this best communicates my thoughts. In general, I think we want to shift our win cons a bit, up the number of counters, and switch up how we draw cards. Here are changes I'd make:
Things I'd remove:
- -4 Divination. It's just a really anemic draw spell and it's sorcery speed. We can clearly do better.
- -2 Launch the Fleet. We're pretty creature light, and this doesn't have the greatest return. I know we have several other token generation methods, but a lot has to go right to make this worth running.
- -3 Talrand, Sky Summoner. If you love him, that's fine. Personally, in a deck like this, I feel that any of my creatures are going to become lightning rods for removal spells. He costs 4, but I'm not playing him until turn 6 or 7 so I can leave mana up to protect him...
- -2 Curse of Exhaustion and -4 Silence. Both of these are cool seeming effects that aren't as back breaking as you'd hope. They're very tempo based plays. One spell a turn (or locking an opponent out of playing their turn) does put you ahead in the tempo race, but we're not really built to take advantage of that tempo shift. I'd rather spend these slots on options that further our game plan.
- -2 Azorius Charm. This just feels out of place because some of the text on it feels pretty useless. If I'm giving a host of tokens life link with it, then I'm probably already ahead on the board. If I'm drawing a card for 2 mana, I'm upset. And if I'm bouncing a creature, there are better options.
- -4 Condemn I'm not sure you need this and Path to Exile (given some of the suggestions I'm going to make). With that said, it's not a bad option...
- Overall, I think I've cut out 21 cards, which gives us 21 cards to play with.
Additions I'd make:
- +4 Myth Realized. This is one of my favorite budget control win cons. He's not a creature most of the time, so our opponents creature removal is turned off until we decide we're ready to fight over him. And, when we do fight over him, he grows bigger for every spell we cast. He really does just reward you for playing a slow control game.
- +3/4 Supreme Verdict (or other wrath effects). Control is about finding ways to 2 for 1 your opponent, and this spell kicks ass at that. It's uncounterable and wipes the board. In this new creature less version of the deck I'm envisioning, it's a one sided wipe. Imagine casting it, then turning on your Myth Realized and swinging into an empty field. This gets especially nasty with Narset Transcendent's -2 ability (which is, in my opinion, her best ability). If you -2 her and then Supreme Verdict, you get a second Verdict free the next turn. Sure, it won't kill anything (because your opponent won't play anything), but then it functions like a time walk or like those Silence spells we removed.
- +6 Spell Pierce and Mana Leak in some combination. I think you need more early counter game, and these are two of my favorites (not to mention neither really breaks the bank). Yes, they're both conditional, but... The tax is enough to still be relevant mid to late game, and the goal of these is to shore up your early game anyway.
- +4 Serum Visions. It's a little expensive for budget, but it's reallly the best option you have for card filter. I'd argue it's better than Divination: it costs 1 mana instead of 3 (so you can still have untapped mana for counters), and let's you do some scrying. The card selection is better than the extra card draw. If you're looking for a cheaper alternative, I do think Anticipate wins over Divination as well.
- +1/2 Sphinx's Revelation. It's simply the best card draw option available to you. You only need 1 or 2 because it's a late game play. Casting it for X=4 or 5 frequently means you win.
- +3 Comparative Analysis. I'm not sold on this, but it's definitely better than Divination. It costs one more, but instant speed really matters (you can cast it at the end of your opponent's turn when you no longer need to worry about keeping mana up for counters) and can be cast for 3 in the late game after you've countered their stuff.
- And I think that brings us back up to a 60 card deck.
Generally, my changes were with a few goals in mind:
- To get us to a creature less state. This turns off some of our opponents cards and allows things like Supreme Verdict to be more powerful. It also ups Narset Transcendent's +1 ability.
- To increase our ability to respond to threats in the early game. Waiting until T3 to be able to counter (and only having 8 counters) is a dangerous game.
- To ensure we're able to keep drawing gas in the mid-late game.
Obviously you don't have to do all (or any) of this, but there are a few thoughts on upgrades or different paths you could take.
February 23, 2016 11:14 a.m.
One way to get around the issue of card advantage and your high cost walkers is to create a lock. One way is with Isochron Scepter on Silence or Dawn Charm then you use removal to get rid of cards on the field all ready. The way the deck is now surviving until turn 6 is really hard especially since most decks aim to win turn 3 in the current environment, you will run out of removal quickly. If you are putting in scepters I would go a bit lighter in counter magic. That's my opinion but who knows what works.
February 23, 2016 12:26 p.m.
fahimakar - I do not aprove of that combo in this deck, it's way to fragile and really not that good as a basic control-shell.
It belongs in an inteirelly different deck. A deck which may be good when playing against unsuspecting friends, but not as good as just an U/W control list once you start playing for real.
the way the deck "tries to survive" until turn 6 now, is difficult against teir 1 decks for sure, but as he starts getting better control cards, it'll be far better than the scepter combo.
February 23, 2016 12:39 p.m.
Instead I would also remove the Silence - (Remember the rule af advantage)
February 23, 2016 1:52 p.m.
KjartanI mean if you wanted to play competitive control a majority of these cards wouldn't be there. If I was playing at a high level I would run some variation of this deck you just can't use high cmc counters and this deck desperately needs more ways to get card advantage.
February 23, 2016 1:54 p.m.
saj0219 thanks for your suggestions really insightful and you suggested fantastic strategies and some cards I didn't know even existed. Mainly the enchantment creature that is selectively a creature that is amazing I'll be editing shortly however as this is budget I don't know if I can add some of the suggestions as they are 5$ a card and my deck has to be under 100$. Anywho check in later as it will be edited shortly and then we can work from there thanks!
February 23, 2016 3:07 p.m.
fahimakar thanks for the advice and the link to that deck both of your comments led me to find a couple of amazing cards that would meld very nicely in this deck after I revise any more additions are very welcome please check again on this deck in a coupe hours
February 23, 2016 3:17 p.m.
fahimakar I have heeded your suggestion and actually built a deck including the combo as a way to stall until i get elspeth. Check the deck out! thanks again for your contribution
February 24, 2016 9:29 p.m.
February 24, 2016 10:01 p.m.
Hi there, looking through the comments I don't think anyone cleared up your question about manaleak. It is a powerful effect, for 2 mana what essentially do is stop them from playing anything but a 1 drop. That being said, they'll only be able to pay for that 1 drop on turn 4. If you'd like an alternative try Spell Pierce which has a weaker effect but the upside of locking them out turn 1.
February 25, 2016 3:11 a.m.
February 25, 2016 3:14 a.m.
I was also going to suggest Gitaxian Probe and/ or Remand neither are overly expensive, but not cheap either. The upside of probe is that for 2 life you see what your up against and can plan accordingly. As for Remand yes it bounces the creature back to their hand. However it is also a cantrip, like probe it allows you to see what's coming and plan, however the card draw is also one of its big advantages over other bounce spells. You can remand and bounce something without losing a card. With the amount of counters in your deck you'll either draw into one of those or a threatening card, but you now have valuable information on your opponent.
That being said I don't know what to suggest to take out for the cards, sorry about that. +1 for the deck though.
February 25, 2016 3:36 a.m.
February 25, 2016 6:03 a.m.
ant_19 as a whole it took me a long while to narrow down what counter-magic I was going to use. With isochron scepter in the deck I decided to have the counter-all counter spells instead of the 1 mana counters as the 3/1 ratio in my opinion is much more valuable but to each his own :) also I did not use vapor snare vs unsummon because if I want to bounce mainly my meddling Mage for some extra flexibility and to adapt as the game goes on :/ trust me with both cards I sat there thinking about them for atleast a solid 5 minutes each when constructing the deck and I personally think that the adaptability the deck has makes up for its downfalls and its lack of damage-thanks for contributing tho! It's always good to have suggestions because it makes deck building both harder and easier-aka more fun.
February 25, 2016 6:54 a.m.
That's no worries, sorry about the amount of comments, as soon as I clicked post I thought of something else.
I hope you do well with this deck, it looks like it has a good game plan. How good is it at locking out the opponent? Can you achieve it by turn 3 consistently or do you find yourself having to mulligan a lot?
February 25, 2016 8:48 a.m.
I like the move to a scepter deck. Three thoughts:
- I'd go Path to Exile over Condemn. If it's a budget choice I think condemn is fine, but path is just a much stronger option if it's in budget.
- I'm not sure about Deprive. While imprinting it on Isochron Scepter gets you a counter every turn, using it every turn locks you into bouncing a land each turn, so you're going to struggle to up your land count. Again it's not super budget, but I might consider Remand in its place.
- I'd consider Vapor Snag over Unsummon. I know using it to bounce your own stuff makes you take a point of damage, but on the whole you'll be directing it at your opponent far more often. You're not running shock lands, so you don't have much that's taxing your life total, which makes me think you can take the ocassional hit.
- I wonder if the new Reflector Mage has a place in here?
Okay, I lied. Four thoughts.
February 25, 2016 9:38 a.m.
actually I've used a probability site for this type of thing and it has very high consistency with anything I need. i have none of these cards which is why I built it on here in the first place
February 25, 2016 10:28 a.m.
saj0219 yes Condemnis a budget choice and it is the closest thing to Path to Exile and actually with deprive I've figured out a way to turn its negative effect into an insanely powerful and unique combo that allows me to well you tell me...here's the combo Isochron Scepter my Deprive and everytime I cast it I can bounce back Halimar Depths...to me that would be reallllly good and besides that you are hard pressed to find another modern legal counter spell that gets rid of anything so I think I'll chance this gimmick. Vapor Snag vs. Unsummon I think I will trade out because now 2 or 3 people suggested it and yea I do think you're right I could tank the damage :) with Reflector Mage he was actually going to be in the deck however I stumbled upon Meddling Mage and well she just is surperior and does it all plus some. Also she is a 2/2 for 2 which is excellent.
February 25, 2016 11:04 a.m.
A 2 colored scy-land is probably better than a mono colored ponder-land.
February 25, 2016 11:15 a.m.
February 25, 2016 5:10 p.m.
saj0219 i think I am going to remove Deprive as it is a cluster fuck of unreliable rulings when paired with Isochron Scepter and id rather avoid all of that nonsense and just go with a 3 mana counter spell that basicly is Silence but only can be used as a counter spell then they cant cast that turn anymore...i think that is the best option as it makes my first land drops more reliable as i dont have to run scry lands and well it can help by me time...however do you have any other suggestions? it seems that more and more suggestions molds this deck into a better and better deck...nice call out on the Deprive... now back to Remand ... I am sorry i really do not like this card. I personally want something dead or just not have to worry about it... i think its more of an early game tempo play not really meant to stop anything just waste peoples mana.
February 25, 2016 5:31 p.m.
February 25, 2016 6:55 p.m.
Kjartan that was my exact intentions, however my friend and his brother both said it would work like that...but they said during FNM some judges would not except the fact that i do not have to turn in a and if i useDeprive with scepter... i mean i cant find any evidence from wizards about an official ruling and therefore i am reluctant to use it...either way i think i will change it back...-do you have any links that could sove this problem for me? if so that would be immensely appreciated.
February 25, 2016 8:16 p.m.
Unfortunately, the additional cost for Deprive does still come into play. If you look at the gatherer rulings on Isochron Scepter here it says "You don't pay the spell's mana cost. If the spell has X in its mana cost, X is 0. You do pay any additional costs for that spell." Unfortunately, Deprive's text says "As an additional cost to cast Deprive, return a land you control to its owner's hand" so the land bounce still happens.
February 25, 2016 8:56 p.m.
And here are some ideas on the deck (and specifically that slot we've been discussing):
- I think in a Scepter deck you ideally want all your non creature spells to be scepter-able, so I'd try to avoid Render Silent. It's certainly not a terrible card, but in addition to being unable to be put on a scepter, I'm not sure that the secondary text on it is terribly relevant. Usually if they're casting a spell worth countering, they probably don't have mana to do another back-breaking thing in the same turn anyway. If it's late enough in the game that they do have the mana to do a second thing, you've hopefully already established your lock.
- If you're going to go with counters that can't be stuck on Isochron Scepter, one of my favorites is Condescend. The scaling cost can be annoying occasionally when they have a ton of untapped lands, but far more often it becomes a 2-4 mana hard counter that lets you scry two. Another option is Rewind, which has the nice bonus of untapping your lands. Then there's always the former standard all-star, Dissolve.
- With a deck like this, I think you may actually be able to skimp one or two lands. Most of your spells are 3 CMC or lower, with the exception of Elspeth (who you can theoretically afford to cast not on time). Though, as I type this, I'm realizing we don't have any mana fixing, so maybe keeping the land count up is a good idea...
- Surrakar Spellblade is certainly an interesting card, but I doubt you'll get much card draw off him. You need a lot to go right in order to draw cards from him.
- Skimping on Remand for budget reasons is totally understandable, but if you have the card, I would strongly encourage you to test it out. I'm very much of the camp of wanting permanent solutions to things I want to get rid of, and I admit Remand seems lackluster at first. When you play with it, however, it really opens your eyes to some things it can do. The ability to replace itself is pretty amazing, and if you manage to imprint it on a Scepter, the drawback sort of disappears. If you have a two mana counter available every turn that always draws you a card... The card they keep trying to play is never getting on the field.
- If you're dead set against Remand, here are some other scepter-able counter options that I might consider:
Delay. Not great as what you counter will come back... But you can buy yourself enough time to set up a scepter before it does
Hindering Light. It's not great, but it'll protect you and your stuff and draws you a card.
Negate deals with non creature spells, but you've got plenty of ways to deal with creatures outside of countering, so that's less of a liability.
February 25, 2016 9:21 p.m.
You could also run Mana Tithe which will help out if your draw hand is predominantly white or you keep drawing into Plains. It can happen.
Not only that, no one ever expects a counter in any other colour but blue. Thought there are a few of them. Also, what it does to the opponent is put them on the back foot. They're now looking at your 1 Plains 2 island mana base thinking ''do I have the mana to pay for my spell if he counters?'' the counter could be literally everything. The more they second guess themselves, the easier it will be for you to lock them down.
February 26, 2016 7:33 a.m.
saj0219 is right, I missread Scepter. Always thought it just said cost.
February 26, 2016 8:53 a.m.
In a Scepter Combo deck.
Which I assume you are trying to converge your control deck to, I'd say some of those more inconsistant cards like Spell Pierce becomes much better, because they are now ment to protect your combo rather than disrupting your opponents plan.
Also, if you have the money for Remand get it. It's much better than you give it credit for. Both in scepter combo and U/W control.
February 26, 2016 8:56 a.m.
saj0219 and Kjartan thanks for all the suggestions...as you guys seem really hell bent in me realizing Remand's worth ive been looking at it and I do now see its worth...it is pretty much a Mana Leak or a Rune Snag(which one of you suggested and tbh i will most likely use rune snag as i really really like what it does) but yea at this point it is more of a budget choice. If im going to change one card to not be budget it woud be upgrading Condemn to Path of Exile...anyway i digress...But my main concern now is the Silence and Isochron Scepter combo...I know it is a fantastic combo and real cheap and all. However, I think that it would just lead to boring games... i think im going to side deck it for something else...any way as you guys bring u what could i sub in to replace Surrakar Spellblade? Atm im making more revisions at current so come on back after that we can work from there. again guys thanks for the help.
February 26, 2016 6:17 p.m.
February 26, 2016 7:02 p.m.
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|Date added||1 year|
|Last updated||1 year|
This deck is Modern legal.
|Tokens||1/1 Soldier, Elspeth|