Blue Fish Urza - cEDH Primer

Commander / EDH ToffMcSoft

SCORE: 39 | 65 COMMENTS | 13023 VIEWS | IN 21 FOLDERS


Major Updates —Feb. 17, 2020

Drops: Intuition Trinket Mage Jace, Wielder of Mysteries Fact or Fiction Timetwister Recurring Insight Trail of Evidence Everflowing Chalice

Adds: Rapid Hybridization Jeweled Amulet Walking Ballista Aether Spellbomb Thassa's Oracle Trickbind Telepathy Feldon's Cane

Justification: - Rapid Hybridization: With more and more Fish Hulk decks showing up Rapid Hybridization earns a spot for instant speed removal to slow down the Hulk decks and/or free up the creature stax IE Collector Ouphe that's stopping Urza.

  • Jeweled Amulet: Many Urza list have run this since day 1, dropped Trinket Mage for it. Trinket Mage always felt too clunky and was really only in the deck to get Top which was only 1 of 3 piece combo. Grabbing Top with Trinket mage always felt like a step backwards.

  • Thassa's Oracle, dropped Jace as Thassa's Oracle is just better and offers utility if you do draw the card. Jace was always a dead draw. Now you you do draw Thassa's Oracle you can potentially use it if you're in a dire situation.

  • Stifle, dropped Fact or Fiction. Out of 50+ Urza matches I've played Fact or Fiction maybe twice. The CMC is too much and very rarely are you in a position unless it's mid-late game to expend the mana on this spell. Every time I have an opening hand with Fact or Fiction I sigh. Stifle has been added due to the Fish Hulk Meta game.

  • Aether Spellbomb, dropped Timetwister as this list doesn't run the Codex Shredder loop. Timetwister had it's fun, half the time you're giving advantage to your opponents. Aether Spellbomb offers potential spot removal, bouncing Urza & bouncing Thassa's Oracle (if played early on). Aether Spellbomb offers utility as well.

  • Trickbind , dropped Recurring Insight. Too many times you'll draw Recurring Insight and just hold the damn card. Waiting for the right opportunity to play it and it never works out. With the Fish Hulk Meta, Trickbind offers and EXCELLENT answer :).

  • Telepathy, dropped Trail of Evidence. While Trail of Evidence may seem like an auto include the card is very clunky and tends to generate A LOT of hate against the Urza player. When you play Trail of Evidence the entire table understands what's going on and will focus you heavily to avoid the positive mana game. Telepathy is cheaper and provides you with VALUABLE insights into the pod. It also provide the mono blue player with the ability to say "I don't have any interaction" if the other players can stop a Combo.

  • Feldon's Cane, dropped Everflowing Chalice. Everflowing Chalice is only useful is Urza is on the board. With Timetwister getting dropped we need a way to bring back our yard if something bad happens to combo pieces. Feldon's Cane is a great utility card if you "spin Urza" and Thassa's, Blue Sun, Walking Ballista & Cap Size are all in the yard.

ToffMcSoft says... #1

Kvothe_the_kingkilla - Dropped PE for Basalt Monolith . Another card to combo w/ Power Artifact and works nicely w/ Voltaic Key . To be honest, PE was always a backup line and was always used in a situation where you were "going for luck" w/ Urza's ability to gain value over time.

July 9, 2019 11:51 a.m.

jaymc1130 says... #2

@ ToffMcSoft The PE ban certainly hurts the more control/staxy variants of Urza and significantly decreases the value of Crystal Shard in particular. The storm variants are much less affected as they already make better use of cards like Sai, Master Thopterist while employing lines enabled with Hurkyl's Recall and similar effects. I don't think this kills the Urza decks, but it might push them into a different play style to remain effective in the meta.

July 9, 2019 8:03 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #3

jaymc1130 couldn't agree more. A lot of fake news out there being spread that Urza is dead deck w/ the PE ban. I've been strongly considering Hurkyl's Recall from the start, might end up swapping Trick Bind for it.

July 10, 2019 12:28 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #4

@ ToffMcSoft Oh man, if you haven't given some storm options a go yet get in a few games with a storm package. I think I've got a decent idea of how to kind of hybridize the variants for some role flexibility in match and the results have been pretty nice in the half dozen games I've managed to get in with this iteration. I really think Mystic Forge (can't tutor for Future Sight, le sigh) is a go to option now with PE on the ban bench, same number of combo pieces required, same (or at least similar depending on the cost reducer) mana investment, and requires pieces the deck is already running outside of Mystic Forge. It's a pretty straight forward 1 for 1 swap in. There's certainly ways to tune around that as an engine by adding in additional cost reducing pieces, but all that's needed to get the ball rolling is 1. It's pretty trivial to figure out the infinite mana part after the whole deck is in hand and in a list that runs a Lab Man style win con even more trivial to just win the match. Biggest down side is it doesn't play nice with Grafdigger's Cage .

July 11, 2019 11:33 a.m. Edited.

ad12341987 says... #5

Very nice looking deck:

I will make a few legitimate suggestions: This is just from my personal experience in mono blue cedh.

Drop the future sight- its a 3 card combo and hard to pull off because blue tutors for enchantments are limited. also DROP Etherium Sculptor- I know it seems weird when you are artifact heavy-but you should be generating enough mana to not require this. instead, consider BARAL, CHIEF OF COMPLIANCE- you will see heavy value from him during counterspell wars.

Drop Gitaxian probe, impulse, brainstorm, ponder, preordain, fact or fiction- you arent storm and the cantrips are not as strong as wheel effects. INSTEAD - Consider Adding, FLUX, TOLARIAN WINDS, INDUCED AMNESIA, DAYS UNDOING, WHIRLPOOL RIDER, ECHO OF EONS. these effects will help ramp your mana base early game and keep your hand full of counter spells or locate your combo and control pieces quickly. they work great alongside your tutors and absolutely decimate your opponents with NARSET, PARTER OF VEILS.

Drop Voltaic key- this seems out of place- i know it has a nice effect but seems win more.

Drop recurring insight- its limited and slow- wheel effects are stronger when youre dumping ramp rocks, even if your opponents benefit- thats why blue has counter spells.

Drop blue suns zenith- its a strong kill spell and useful but urza wont let you win with it if he exiles it- X must be 0. you already win with decking yourself from urzas ability. if you need a draw spell to win with the JACE, Wielder of Mysteries, consider the wheels already in your deck or the list above. The card seems good as a backup win, but it is actually just a win more.

Drop Grafdiggers Cage- this is a meta based option but well placed counterspells should be able to handle your needs, even in cEDH

Drop Disallow- 2 card counters are easier to pull off, if youre worried about triggers consider the new TALES END, cards like NARSETS REVERSAL are also fun.

Drop Flusterstorm, Swansong, Negate, Into the Roil, trickbind,


consider dropping Drop trail of evidence- you have enough mana lol. and also Drop Sai- optional- he is very strong and can ramp you, but you might, as stated, already have enough mana, I guess blue can never have enough though

add muddle the mixture- it tutors for many win condition pieces- power artifact, grim monolith, aphetto alchemist, illusionist bracer, dramatic reversal, isochron scepter. also the tutor ability (transmute) cant be countered.

add illusionist bracers- it stacks well with urzas mana ability, can late game help recover with his secondary, and will help enable your win condition combo potential with aphetto alchemist. add aphetto alchemist- it doubles as a nice utility card and can go infinite with illusionist bracers.

add scroll rack- for all that is beautiful in this world please. its blue gold.

add pili-pala- its an artifact that can tap with urza and has infinite combo potential add grand-architect- it combos with pili-pala

add long term plans- you can dig the card up fairly quick in mono blue and its instant speed.

add personal tutor- it can be slow but is immensely powerful.

Consider this HARD counterspell list, they can target any card- they are very good with a sapphire medallion or baral in play and will give you the control aspect you need to progress to your combo plays if timed properly and only used to answer threats. A general rule with mono blue is to always hold up mana and answers until you can back up your win, early game turn 1,2,3 be careful for glass cannon combos and just focus on progressing your board state and refilling your hand/wheeling your opponents hands away.

remand- replaces itself at the cost of a back to hand counterspell- it buys more time then you think and can win end game with JACE. arcane denial- replaces itself, can be used even on your own spells to net draw or even to win end game with JACE. unsubstantiate- it works as a great general deterrent and gets around "cant be countered" ertais meddling- gets around cant be countered and works as a mini delay. memory lapse- this is a dick move, ruins their next draw and counters their spell.

consider this list for better mana ramp potential- Paradoxical outcome- absolutely insane with this deck Retract- works like hurkyls recall, but for you-artifact based high tide anyone? rebuild- not as good as the above. energy tap- 4 colorless from urza for 1 blue mana- pretty good. hidden strings- speaks for itself.

consider a bit of recursion- snapcaster mage mission briefing flood of recollection

strong blue cards: dream halls: probably not advised for an urza control deck bent on ruining the ability for your opponents to play spells, but backed up with wheels and counterspells can win you the game immediately.

July 11, 2019 3 p.m.

ad12341987 says... #6

also any reason not to run nykthos? i mean i know devotion is limited but its strong.

and consider Tidespout Tyrant, forgot to include in my last post

July 11, 2019 3:51 p.m.

ad12341987 Why not tell him to just throw his deck in a fire after all that?

July 11, 2019 5:29 p.m.

shadowmage says... #8

this ad12341987 guy has no idea what hes talking about lol

July 11, 2019 7:15 p.m.

ad12341987 says... #9

lol shadowmage i created most of what is considered the original sidisi cedh ad nauseam deck which during partial paris years was one of the very top glass cannon combo decks thats ever graced the cedh scene. I have as well made the current marwyn glass cannon deck. ive played the game since right after its release and have been in the "commander" scene for many many years, playing at one of the top stores in the nation which for many years holds one of highest fnm turnouts and is one of the top 3 mtg retailers in the world. I am in nearly direct contact with some of the leading team designers, rnd, and commander committee members.. I have tinkered with countless decks and commander builds utilizing tactics from value decks to high synergy all the way to down right casual tribal aggro. I am simply making suggestions and throwing ideas around to help get people thinking about different options and possibilities.

but yeah youre right, i am still learning, after all, Urza is a new release to the cedh scene and learning which cards are available to fit a best in slot combo build while being able to control and handle threats from different metas is a difficult process.

July 11, 2019 10:28 p.m.

jaymc1130 says... #10

@ ad12341987 Mate, I understand those folks might have been a bit rude to you and it might have made you upset, but I just want to be very real, very honest with you for a moment. Please understand I in no way intend to offend you.

It's pretty clear from your original statement that you don't have much experience with high level competitive play. Certainly in the EDH format and it's likely the case in every format simply based on the actual words, reasons, and choices you presented in said original statement. Again, I don't say this to belittle you, I'm just stating facts.

If you'd like to have a more in depth discussion about various aspects of competitive level play I'd be more than happy to oblige outside of ToffMcSoft's deck list as this would not be an appropriate place to have that kind of discussion nor is this the appropriate place for you to act outlandishly and make a scene. I understand some of those comments made toward you probably also fit that bill, and those folks should know better than to be deliberately rude and disrespectful. No matter what it's pretty impolite to have a bickering battle in another person's space. No one likes a Kiyomei.

July 11, 2019 11:37 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #11

ad12341987 Appreciate the suggestions & feedback. I've considered Snapcaster Mage & Baral, Chief of Compliance many times. Both these cards may end up finding their way into the list eventually.

Regarding your other suggestions, the list here has been derived from Urza Paradox Scepter which is consistantly tested by sickrobot Lerker ShaperSavant & LabManiac_Sigi. There have been extended discussions on card choices, multiple play test and meta specific swaps.

If you're interested in exploring these further with us, my suggestion would be to join the Urza discord we have going.

July 12, 2019 11:17 a.m.

procy says... #12

Trickbind and voltaic key both has a upgraded cards now in M20.

July 13, 2019 1:21 p.m.

Ripklawe says... #13

I might agree with Manifold Key being better than Voltaic Key but I think Trickbind having split second still makes it favorable over Tale's End . Although, I guess that the ability to hit legendary spells IS very good.

July 13, 2019 8:31 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #14

Ripklawe Trickbind is strickly a meta play on my end, it could 100% be subbed out. Manifold Key will make it's way in, I'll update the list once I pick up the card.

July 18, 2019 10:54 a.m.

Dafufu says... #15

What Intuition piles do you usually search for when playing this deck?

July 18, 2019 11:59 p.m.

IronBlackZepp says... #16

Paradoxical outcome is a better option than recurring insight in my opinion. It can fraw so many cards, and is an instant opposed to a sorcery.

Intuition piles are always situational, depending on if you need wheels, counter spells, or your win con.

July 23, 2019 1:20 p.m.

IronBlackZepp says... #17

I do think Trickbind could be better than disallow. Also, relic barrier is worth a shot.

July 23, 2019 1:22 p.m.

What's the purpose of Manifold Key seems like a cheaper Voltaic Key but is that all it does?

July 27, 2019 12:25 p.m.

Ilnez says... #19

Is there a decent budget replacement for twister?

July 27, 2019 11:28 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #20

TheAlteredMind Manifold Key give you the utility to let your construct get unblocked. Very rare and extremely situational but why not have the option if it's available?

Ilnez Echo of Eons would be the budget version for twister. Most people will just proxy Timetwiser and most cEDH leagues allows for a certain degree of proxies. If you're looking to play @ a GP, Urza most likely isn't your best bet since the PE ban.

July 29, 2019 5:24 p.m.

You really think that since the PE ban Urza isnt competitive at the GP level?

July 29, 2019 8:56 p.m.

ToffMcSoft says... #22

@ TheAlteredMind Yes, absolutely. T&T however is far too superior to everything else though. Flash needs to be banned, the cEDH meta has been severely screwed since PE ban and everyone flocking to Flash Hulk decks.

I will still rank Urza over as the #1 mono blue cEDH general Teferi due to the Chain Veil being shut down way to easy. The PE ban hurt a lot of competitive decks and reduced the power level across for board in cEDH. It's also very important to keep in mind that PE was plan B or even plan C in many Urza decks.

August 1, 2019 11:01 a.m.

jaymc1130 says... #23

@ ToffMcSoft Actually, Flash Hulk style decks are pretty bad in a truly competitive meta where people have actually realized what the most dominant strategy in the entire format is. The UBx style "Inception" builds absolutely obliterate the fast glass cannon combo decks like Food Chain, Flash Hulk and the like. In fact, this has been true for almost a year now and the "Inception" strategy has only been improved with the release of new sets in that time frame while the other decks in the meta largely gained very little.

If you're interested the most powerful version of the concept is here: Inception! (aka Thrymception) [cEDH Primer]. This strategy is legitimately the only one I would even remotely consider taking to a sanctioned event and only the exact commander and color set up being used would be a consideration (T&T based "Inception" is statistically the best performer though).

I certainly wouldn't mind Flash being bannned, but those decks are hopelessly outclassed any ways at this point as they are simply way too card slot inefficient to be truly competitive.

August 1, 2019 6:56 p.m. Edited.

IronBlackZepp says... #24

I think storage matrix might be worth a try in this deck.

August 3, 2019 5:11 a.m.

IronBlackZepp says... #25

I think variety circle is worth a shot in any mono blue deck in a meta filled with mana dorks.

Rings might be better than future sight since you have basalt monolith, and it's easily tutored by fabricate and the likes, while FS is more of an, "oops I found my combo piece." Rings is also worth the trigger with fetch lands, because two is always better than one.

August 3, 2019 5:21 a.m.