One other thing, have to ever considered running paradox engine or is that just too high on the curve to act as a secondary win and likely belongs in a deck built around it? I've played paradox engine since it's printing and have gotten quite comfortable with it, though I feel paradox engine may just fit better with sultai shells. Any chance that this could be a line that could he considered over the scepter/reversal package?

I feel like Paradox Engine would be rather win-more, if I'm able to hit 5 mana with enough cards in hand to start going off there's probably some other line. The only thing why I'd concider playing Engine is if people played more Sphere effects since Engine kind of allows me to storm around them, but as it is I don't feel like the deck wants to run a 5 mana card that's dead outside the combo turn and not totally necessary during.

Perfect! Your list has been a fantastic starting point for Grixis for me, so thank you for taking the time to answer these questions:)

How is this a deck? 27 lands is not a "competitive" deck. How many lands do you draw in a game Rev, like, what, 8?

You obviously need to go to 26.

<3

So Rev, now Moxnix is back making YouTube videos, are you two gonna team up or be rivals?

Is that a challenge? Should I now make my own YouTube channel? :P

Yes :p

Make a YouTube channel and I would watch that in a heartbeat, can't see the difference between this list and your paper list, the description says no bob in paper but neither list has bob?

Please make a youtube channel and i will watch every video. I have watched near all of moxnixs and would like to see how a lower to the ground storm deck pilots.

Thoughts on praetor's grasp? I've been doing a mental exercise on using it to steal opposing win conditions if I get real unlucky with jeleva flips.

Also, I'm adding blood crypt back into my version in addition to Badlands for consistency. Nobody in my meta plays back to basics or blood moon (outside of me) so it feels perfectly reasonable to swap out the swamp for it. I've been re-testing grapeshot as a more flexible interaction card instead of pongify that can also be used as another kill condition. Ive yet to run into issues with jeleva exiling all of my own win conditions so far, but it's just something I've been trying out.

Praetor's Grasp is strange, in my paper meta I might cut Grim Tutor for it just because there's so many Naus/Storm decks in my meta, but in cockatrice meta I would never cut Grim for it, and playing both just seems bad. Grim Tutor is already super underwhelming at 3 mana (with double black) and 3 life, so running a second copy doesn't sound ideal. It is true that it can be used to steal your opponent's wincon if Jeleva exiles both (or all three actually) of your wincons, but from hundreds of games played that has yet to happen to me. Once has Jeleva exiled both Labman and Reservoir, but I ended up winning that game with Iso/Rev into draw deck with Top into play Jeleva-remove Jeleva and mill my opponents out.

I'm not a huge fan of Blood Crypt even if no-one is playing nonbasic hate, if that's the case just run Sunken Ruins, Underground River or Urborg instead of the basic Swamp. The deck usually fetches Badlands so rarely anyway that I'd definitely rather run a more conditional U/B dual than Crypt. Grapeshot is okay, I don't really see the need to run it even when it doubles as a 3rd wincon since exiling Reservoir and Labman is super rare anyway, and also because without Remand/Unsub it pretty much needs Iso/Rev to work as a wincon. Vanilla-storming to 60 and Grapes-Yawgwin-Grapes doesn't sound like the best thing ever, plus I just like Pongify since being a blue instant is actually kinda relevant, it pitches to FoW and is tutorable with Merchant Scroll. Grapeshot is spicy tech against dorks, but because of how popular dorks have become I just went and added a second boardwipe in the form of Fire Covenant, which atm is actually Rolling Earthquake in my "experimental" Jeleva list.

I've been trying to figure this out, but how do you remove jeleva enough times to mill your opponents out? There's probably a very obvious interaction I'm missing though..

Step 1: Make infinite mana with Isochron Scepter + Dramatic Reversal

Step 2: Draw your deck with Sensei's Divining Top or Mind's Desire

Step 3: Cast Jeleva, hold Priority and Mana Drain/Pact of Negation/FoW/Delay/Counterspell her and repeat so that she costs a lot of mana

Step 4: Cast Jeleva and let her resolve, all your opponents exile the top 10+ cards of their deck

Step 5: Chain of Vapor/Snap(sending to the command zone)/Pyroblast/Pongify/whatever her and keep recasting and removing her so your opponents exile the top X cards of their libraries where X is a lot. This already should be enough, but if needed we can keep going.

Step 5.5: Timetwister and do it all again, then if it STILL isn't enough (because most of your removal and counters are in exile? iunno) Yawgwin and do it all over again.

Step 6: Pass the turn and watch your opponents deck themselves.

I completely forgot about twister! Thanks dude!

Some things that I've been testing with mixed results recently, due to not yet owning Imperial Seal or grim tutor, are Transmute artifact and personal tutor. Lim-Dul's vault had been my substitute for Imperial Seal so far and it's performed admirably, so much so that I'm likely to keep it. I understand the feeling with the 3 cost tutors, which is why I cut fabricate from my initial build and replaced it with Transmute artifact with mixed results. Most of the time, Transmute artifact is great and allows me to assemble future-top or dramatic scepter relatively easily. I had originally cut snap for personal tutor as a test, but personal tutor so far has netted very mixed results, especially since I treat it as Doomsday #2, wheel #3 or twister #2 (I'm using spiral right now due to not owning a twister). I feel like in a deck where Doomsday is the primary game plan, personal tutor would be a fine stand in, but I'm not as impressed with it as I was with snap, which is always good.

What I have wanted to get your opinion on was Diabolic intent as another way to kill your own jeleva when you need gas, while still netting a significant advantage at the same time. It seems a little cute of an idea but it may have legs?

Intent is never online early game and is rarely online on the combo turn. Even the payout really isn't there, resetting Jeleva is more of a desperation play you do when you have to do it, not a thing you actively want to do. If we had access to green and dorks then yeah Intent would be great, but since we don't I wouldn't play it.

Hi reverse have you considered unsubstantiate? I feel ultimately it would prove itself more useful than the likes of snap. While it does not untap the lands it is was more versatile, from "countering" any spell even uncounterable ones although the only really relevant targets this might have is creatures of type named from cavern of souls but also just using the remand trick on your own mind's desire. Overall I think the cards versatility might out way the efficiency of snap. What do you think about the card?

I played Unsubstantiate for a long time and in the end it was just too bad. The thing is Snap costs practically 0 mana so it pairs great with wheels and other similiar plays plus being a ritual with High Tide is actually really big. The problem with Unsubstantiate is that as a counterspell it's kinda lackluster, in counterspell wars it doesn't do anything against Swan Song and the likes and overall you either want your counters to be hard counters or not cost two mana. The creature bounce mode isn't irrelevant but again at two mana it was too slow on the combo turn and hard to justify on later turns since unless you're going off the same/following turn (if you EOT Unsub) they can just play their hatebear/efficient beater back in which case running a real removal spell like Pongify is just better. I really like cards that do double duty and fill multiple roles, but Unsubstantiate in my experience was just too bad at both jobs to keep in the deck. As for the Mind's Desire synergy, more often than not that's just win-more and if the card isn't good as a reactive card what it primarly is the cute interactions ultimately aren't worth it.