Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control

Commander / EDH* precociousapprentice

SCORE: 740 | 914 COMMENTS | 200906 VIEWS | IN 400 FOLDERS


Queen Marchesa has realized her crown! —Oct. 26, 2017

Queen Marchesa is now the top Mardu EDH deck. Thank you all for the support, the questions, the comments, and the suggestions. This deck is an evolution, and has been a year in the making. I still have editing to do in the writeup, but the work I have put into it has obviously been appreciated. Thank you, especially all the high volume contributors.

I want to specifically call out MegaMatt13 for his help. We have similar Queen Marchesa decks, with slightly divergent deck lists. The differences are important, and seeing how both work will benefit the aspiring Queen Marchesa player, or players of Aikido archetype decks.

As for the future, I will keep evolving things, exploring Queen Marchesa, political EDH, and Aikido as an archetype. I ask that people continue to spread the word and the love through upvotes, since other commanders are all eager to take the crown from it's rightful Queen. Never let up, for they will take the Queen down if we are not vigilant.

Long live Queen Marchesa!

Boda, I think I am mostly ready to comment on Axis of Mortality .

I will be unlikely to play it, because I think the effect on the game is counter to what I want to achieve. It is a powerful late game ability that happens on your upkeep. It announces well ahead of time that a serious effect is going to come into play. The effect gives my opponents a chance to adjust their play to counter the effect. The effect could end up being the most powerful effect in the entire game, so there is serious incentive to counter or take advantage of it. This will affect play.

When Axis of Mortality hits the battlefield, it effectively says that no life total can be considered owned by any player. At the whim of the Axis of Mortality player, any life total can exchange hands. When facing this, I personally would rethink my relationship to each life total. I would decide that, unless I can bring a life total to zero in a single turn, I would not want to effect any life total, due to the fact that any life total could become mine, even the one I just changed. I would instead concentrate on affecting the board state in ways that do not affect life totals until I can remove Axis of Mortality from the battlefield. I would be wary of the player of Axis of Mortality due to the fact that their are in control of the life totals. I would attempt to place them in a position that they are vulnerable, but wouldn't make any plays against their life total until I could eliminate them from the game, simultaneously removing the Axis of Mortality from the game. The game state would stall, the usual strategies would be abandoned until Axis of Mortality was eliminated, and the end game would likely be delayed for some time.

As an Aikido player, this is counter to what I want to go on. I want people swinging at each other. I even accept being attacked so that people will take The Monarch, and then fight over it, which at first glance would seem to be a suboptimal play, but ultimately utilizes my opponents' resources to hasten the arrival of the end game, giving me a relative card and game advantage as their resources are simultaneously spent and whittled away, hopefully leaving mine more intact than theirs, and then allowing me to utilize the resources on the battlefield to power large bombs for my own victory. Encouraging play states where no one is motivated to bring the end game closer, and everyone is motivated to chip away a the resources on the battlefield, those resources that I want to use to win, all the while painting a target on my head as the puppet master of the game, this will likely significantly weaken the deck and play style. It will likely be a very bad card for this deck.

October 15, 2017 12:07 p.m.

Older20 says... #2

Have you play tested Fumiko the Lowblood?

I've found her to be incredibly fun to play with - the game really speeds up and offers a lot of new strategies and options when everyone is attacking all the time.

October 16, 2017 11:12 p.m.

I haven't played Fumiko the Lowblood since the earliest stages of the deck. It does mix things up at the table. I found that her ability was not as good as Goad, since creatures can attack you as well. With a full Fort assembled, Fumiko the Lowblood can be fun, but I found that with a full Fort up, I like Grenzo, Havoc Raiser better, since my deathtouch or evasive creatures could cause similar shenanigans, only with Goad instead, and Grenzo, Havoc Raiser also came with the theft ability, which was also fun. I feel like when I can avoid being piled on for playing it, I would almost rather not have a target out, since people find reasons to mix it up on their own, and putting Fumiko the Lowblood out makes it a little too obvious. A good fort does this by itself. I do occasionally think about either Grenzo, Havoc Raiser or Fumiko the Lowblood in place of Ogre Slumlord. I think I would go for Grenzo, Havoc Raiser in most cases, but Fumiko the Lowblood also fits the theme.

October 17, 2017 6 p.m.

Yarataj says... #4

Why don't you play Forcefield? One of the better pillowfort cards. Also Ankle Shanker and Boros Battleshaper.

October 18, 2017 4:49 a.m.

TheWallinator74, thanks for the comment. I tried Crackling Doom. It was good, but the list is tight. It is nice in metas with eldrazi titans, but mine did not have much that way, so it was less good than the other control. I also like to keep power on the table if possible so I can use it myself. Crawlspace is pretty great, but it actually performed worse than more subtle things like Duelist's Heritage. Situationally, it can be great, such as when I have a Maze effect, but otherwise, it was less effective. Norn's Annex has been in and out of the deck since inception, it never pulls it's weight. I have addressed that every time it comes up, but essentially, spending life is something that people are prepared to do. It doesn't change table behavior that much. I have looked at Diaochan, Artful Beauty, and she can be used politically, but a stronger spot removal is usually what I want. I have not playtested her, so she could turn out to be awesome. Honestly, that is not really the type of politics this deck plays. Strangely, negotiation is typically not what you want to do. Avoid the perception of manipulation, stick to giving choices that will likely lead to table behavior that benefits you because it is your opponent's best option as well. Diaochan, Artful Beauty does not do this at all.

Mathas, Fiend Seeker is something that I have had extensive discussions about, here and all over the usual forums. I think he is counter to what this deck wants to do. I want to leave power on the table, using it to create my victory conditions. He wants to control the board by convincing people to use their control the way that you want it, keeping the board clear and safe for Mathas. I can get away with packing less offense and less wincons sheerly by affecting table behavior and leaving power on the battlefield. Mathas needs to carry more offense and wincons, because he eliminates threats from the battlefield. Different play styles, and I don't think that they mix.

Yarataj, I agree with Forcefield being great. I don't have one. I would test it if I did, but I am not sure it is even that much better than what I have. The pillow fort is crazy good at doing what it is intended, and is not obvious until it is played. Affecting table behavior is the name of the game, and you often don't need the most effective cards to make this happen, and sometimes subtle is better. As for Ankle Shanker and Boros Battleshaper, neither fits. Ankle Shanker is more of an expensive combat trick board wipe than anything, and I don't have room or need for that effect. Not enough creatures to take advantage of that, and adding deathtouch to my mostly deathtouch creatures adds nothing. Good in Alesha, less impressive in Queen Marchesa, almost no value added in this build. Boros Battleshaper is a combat trick, but it is very expensive, and is manipulative. This deck focuses on shaping decisions, not as much outright taking them away. There are a few cards that make decisions for other players, but those are basically game enders, like Wrath of Goad ( Disrupt Decorum ). I have avoided blatant manipulation, because I think it will be much less effective. Cards in play should give subtle added value through changing table behavior by encouraging decisions that forward my plan because they also benefit the one making the decision, and blatant manipulation should hit the table and immediately create a huge effect on the game, and then go away. Boros Battleshaper is not subtle, takes time to get full effect, and looks like it will create persistent resentment of my game state in other players. When other players start thinking "Well, this sucks." about my board state, I want it to be because the game has ended. Otherwise, I want them to be thinking, "I can deal with that later, and I might as well use it while I can." It should feel like Group Hug to attack other players and Stax to attack me. Players like to play with group hug, and hate to play with Stax. They usually adjust their play style and decisions accordingly.

Thanks for the comments. I will definitely continue to consider all suggestions, and may change my mind as I come to a better understanding, but these are my initial reactions.

As an insight into how I think, when considering cards, people usually ask themselves, "How will this affect the board state?" That is a good start, but I like a little different approach. I ask, "How will this change how people play? Will they make decisions that are in my favor when I play this? Will they feel a need to go against me when I play it? Do I care about that?" This makes certain cards much more powerful than they seem, because the board state is less important in multiplayer than how people choose to play. This is what 1v1 players complain about multiplayer games, and rant about "politics" and the negative effect on the game. I want to use that. Not the manipulation, not the negotiation, but the flow of the game and the decisions that people make about how they use their cards. This deck is about affecting that element of the game. I could choose better cards for affecting the board, but these cards are the best for changing decisions about how people should play their cards. Can it be played around? Yes. Does it get played around very often. Absolutely not. That is why it is so fun.

October 18, 2017 8:08 a.m.

MegaMatt13 says... #6

I will be curious to hear how your testing of Thaumatic Compass goes. I'm considering it too but don't know what I would cut for it. I wonder if the right way to play it is to just not use its basic land fetching ability (unless really hard up for mana obviously) and then just let it flip naturally when you get to 7 lands (usually not that long in Commander). The 3 mana to search for a basic and put it into your hand seems a little steep. The extra Maze of Ith is of course wonderful though.

October 18, 2017 10:10 p.m.

That is basically how it has worked. I have played Thaumatic Compass twice. Both times I only fetched a few times. It flipped both times pretty naturally at 7 lands.

It is nice that you can use it at instant speed, making it hurt less to keep open mana for reaction spells, since at least you can fetch a land before your turn. That makes it similar to another Weathered Wayfarer, since the addition of cards in hand is good, even if you have no interest in playing them as lands. You can just pitch them to Solitary Confinement or Key to the City. When it flips, you get a Maze of Ith! Even if you just play it early and then wait for it to naturally flip, it is good.

I think that the cost looks higher than it will actually be. It's almost like the comes-into-play-tapped lands. They can slow you down, but you can learn to play around them so that you don't really notice most of the time. The cost seems steep, but if you mostly ignore it and just pump mana in when it is otherwise sitting idle, you get good value out of it. Don't think about it like a Maze that costs multiple turns in a row to make active. Think of it as a late game Maze that can be brought online sooner by spending otherwise unused mana that you held open for reactive instants, and with a side benefit of the occasional mana fixing land drop ability. It is a pseudo-ramp, pseudo-fixing, pseudo-draw, late game pillow fort. At this point, I feel like it fits right in.

October 18, 2017 11:15 p.m.

MegaMatt13 says... #8

You've convinced me to give it a try :) I see what you're saying in regards to only activating it when you have unused mana that was being held up anyway.

My only problem is where to make room! I love all the cards in my deck and it's tough to cut anything haha

October 19, 2017 12:29 p.m.

I know what you mean. Tough to cut really cool cards, even for other really cool cards.

October 19, 2017 7:08 p.m.

SurpriZe says... #10

What do you think of Serene Master (the definition of aikido), Crown of Doom, Skullclamp (if someone has the monarch, you can opt for drawing with the tokens), Mother of Runes (negates any sort of spot removal, providing evasion and easy defence as well)?

I was also thinking about Rite of the Raging Storm, as it doesn't prevent the opponents from doing anything (no feeling of stax) and gives them free stuff to play with (similar to hug). Have you ever considered it?

October 20, 2017 2:04 p.m.

SurpriZe, I love how you are thinking about this deck. It is exactly how I think about it. Every one of those cards have been considerations for this deck, and it ultimately often comes down to card slots available. Crown of Doom and Serene Master have been the strongest considerations. Crown of Doom acts very similarly to The Monarch, but is less subtle, demands action instead of suggests it, and cost you both 5 mana to activate and a card slot that The Monarch does not. It is still a strong card, and would be another fun pseudo-Pillow Fort. Serene Master is very cool, acts similarly to Vampire Nighthawk, but is more likely to live through a combat, but doesnt have flying. Flying won. Maybe in the near future I will reveal the Aikido deck I am making for my daughter. Both of these will likely appear in it. The others were not as good at directly forwarding my game plan as cards already in the deck. Still, every one is a good option.

October 20, 2017 6:01 p.m.

SurpriZe says... #12

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to hear!

While we are at it, what can you say about Arcane Lighthouse (with so much spot removal/finishers relying on targeting a big creature, I've noticed that many hexproofed/shrouded commanders pose an unsolvable issue at times) and Slayers' Stronghold (allows for sudden finishers with hasted Master of Cruelties and other beaters, while letting us affect the board of other players as well)?

October 21, 2017 9:59 a.m.

The only creature in my meta that routinely has hexproof or shroud is Fleecemane Lion, so Arcane Lighthouse has not made an appearance yet. Slayers' Stronghold was in the deck for a while. It was a pseudo-Pillow Fort in that I could offer to boost other players' creatures if they don't attack me, and the added boost was nice for mine occasionally. I never had it make an effect on a game due to haste, but I could see that it could. When I took it out, the land slots in the deck were limited. It was removed to make room for Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion. I guess both Arcane Lighthouse and Slayers' Stronghold could take a basic slot if needed. They are nice utility lands that would add a little something to the deck.

October 22, 2017 8:10 a.m.

Semi-repost from MegaMatt13's wall to spread love for Teferi's Protection . I won the game against a semi-mirror match against a newly minted Bant Aikido deck. It went Demonic Tutor and Enlightened Tutor to get Master of Cruelties and Key to the City, cast Master of Cruelties. Opponent casts Path to Exile on Master of Cruelties. I cast Teferi's Protection , saving my entire board. Pass the turn, my opponent gets nothing, and passes the turn, knowing she is at least mostly dead. I draw the Key to the City, cast it, and tap and discard to Key to the City on Master of Cruelties, attacking with Master of Cruelties. This bypasses my opponent's Michiko Konda, Truth Seeker, Clever Impersonator cloned No Mercy, and her Delaying Shield, as well as a held Dawn Charm to put her at 1 life. I transmute Shred Memory into Price of Progress and cast it, knowing that she doesn't have enough to pay the mana to Delaying Shield to save herself next turn. Pass the turn, and good game. This was after she let an Insurrection through to take out both other opponents earlier in the game when she could have Dawn Charmed to save them. I was expecting her to hold a fog, so I took out them instead of her. She ended up dyeing with that Dawn Charm in hand. Super interesting to see the deck in a multiplayer against another Aikido deck, this one with arguably more control and defense in the form of blue control and green rattlesnakes, but with less aggression. The aggression won out. Mardu aikido is amazing, super fun, and will probably always be my favorite.

October 22, 2017 8:23 a.m.

Juppe says... #15

What do you think about my take on playing more curses in a political Marchesa deck?


Moatchesa, Queen of politics

Commander / EDH Juppe

SCORE: 2 | 2 COMMENTS | 76 VIEWS


I really think the addition of the new ones in CMD17 and with some new ones in Amonkhet we have the opportunity to put targets on other peoples faces. The ones of Innistrad-block are great as well..Here are just some examples of cards I mean:

October 23, 2017 7:19 a.m.

Some of the curses are great, and I run Curse of Opulence as a pseudo-Pillow Fort card. The issue is that you want to manipulate behavior through rewards, but not give rewards that you cannot handle or will not cause vengeance seeking. They are nice for a nudge, but when overplayed, they can backfire. The C17 curses are actually very nice, but I find the Innistrad curses to be less optimal. The shared reward is great, even when it is as powerful as Curse of Verbosity. Card draw is very powerful, but when you are splitting it with other players, people are less likely to overwhelm you with the value that they get, or to resent the value that you are getting. The player being cursed is likely to resent it, so it is actually best to piggy back a curse onto existing table sentiment. What I mean here is, when someone it in a commanding or threatening position, and the table is considering rallying to oppose them, it is good to add a curse to the consideration to sweeten the prospect. It is the other side of the coin from Pillow Fort and Rattle Snake cards. Instead of "Look elsewhere." type effects like Ghostly Prison or No Mercy, it is a "Consider them." effect, which can have a very similar effect on player behavior. The effect can't be too heavy handed, since players do not like being manipulated. It is also better to have the reward be immediate, and not conditional or delayed. We are not trying to get them to trust us or ally with us explicitly. Also, effects that target, but do not affect decisions of the group are often less effective in politics. In this sense, certain cards in your list become better for politics, and certain cards are worse. Curse of Vengeance is counter productive, since you are rewarded, no one else is, and the cursed player will rightly see you as benefiting from their misfortunes. Other players may hold off attacks on that player in an attempt to limit your reward, and the cursed player has good reason to start attacking you. That is the opposite of what this deck wants. Trespasser's Curse is less bad, but still doesn't motivate anyone else at the table to help you, and still creates the revenge motivation with what is essentially little reward. If I wanted that effect, I would go with Suture Priest, and hit the entire table equally. Curse of Vitality is probably too little reward, since 2 life is a small resource. Curse of Shallow Graves is likely a decent reward, but may allow other players to outpace you, since this deck is less likely in a position to press an attack, making Curse of Disturbance a much better card. You keep pace with the table with Curse of Disturbance. Curse of Bloodletting is a slightly more powerful version of Duelist's Heritage, with more limitations and less control, all at a higher price. I already play that effect in the form of the much better Duelist's Heritage, although playing in a meta with many swarm decks may make it a better option. This leaves my two favorite curses, Curse of Opulence and Curse of Verbosity, with only Curse of Opulence able to be played in this deck. I find that shared resource gain of a resource that is not immediately seen as threatening is a really great spot to be in. Curse of Opulence is a nice ramp spell early, and has put Queen Marchesa in play for me on the second turn on multiple occasions. I am building both a Grixis and a Bant Aikido deck, and Curse of Verbosity will likely show up in both. I have not played it yet, but if it turns out to play like Curse of Opulence, it may end up being a great Pillow Fort card for those decks, and will potentially turn out to be a more subtle Edric, Spymaster of Trest for more blue decks, while allowing you to at least keep parity with the rest of the table as they take advantage of the bounty you put on another player. I am looking forward to seeing it in action. I will check out the rest of your list, but that will be the position I will be evaluating the list from.

October 23, 2017 10:01 a.m.

Juppe says... #17

precociousapprenticeThanks for the huge analysis. I get some of your points and I think the main problem between our positions is that I simply run a different form of Pillowfort.. Usually nobody is actually able to attack me, so giving my opponents 2/2 zombies is actually good to let them kill each other or work out something in their circle while I sit behind my pillow fort and beeing not attacked/considered as a threat at all.

Therefore Curse of Shallow Graves and Curse of Disturbance are a lot better in my list than in yours..

Regarding Curse of Vengeance I have to admit that I never tried out playing this paticular one.. After I return to my home playing group (due to being abroad for half a year right now...) I surely can say more how people really react to this kind of "threat"/reward".

Duelist's Heritage is as good as you said but may be considered as too powerful being on your side of the field, I think. Curse of Bloodletting is actually a lot better than you think. Not only putting a metaphorical but an actual red target sign that says "if he/she gets outhanded, just kill him/her, it's a lot easier now". I usually put that thing on the one who's already ahead of everybody to make it easier to take him out and lead the group in that direction..

Probably I'm going to cut Trespasser's Curse as it doesn't really mark somebody as a target, as you said :) Suture Priest on the other hand is too oppressing for the whole table and marking myself as a target, therefore not good at all but a good example for effects that are similar to this curse.

October 24, 2017 8:39 a.m.

I will take your word for the power of your Pillow Fort in your meta, but I don't see anything that is overly powered beyond the usual Marchesa Fort. Lightmine Field will clear a board sometimes and can be useful, Island Sanctuary has limited effect in EDH given the number of flying creatures even if it is a viable alternative to Solitary Confinement in some cases, Blazing Archon is solid, but way too expensive to affect most games, and creatures are the most fragile of permanents, and the rest is pretty bog standard Pillow Fort. Don't overestimate how secure you will be. A Pillow Fort is powerful not for making you invincible, but for changing behavior at the table by making you a less desirable target, and sometimes, a stronger Fort is weaker than a more subtle fort. Politics is the art of convincing people that your way is the best, and that often happens when they feel they are getting the better deal. I am not sure I see how the curses do that in most instances, and were you to play them against me, I am not sure I would behave the way you are suggesting people will.

October 24, 2017 7:33 p.m.