Mossflower's Infinite Wanderings

infinite mana....nothing to do with it o.O

July 7, 2012 8:07 p.m.

Admittedly, you do need a sac outlet to be able to re-cast Maelstrom Wanderer an infinite number of times (and therefore cast your entire deck onto the field), but I think having 9 different outlets provides a good chance of finding one when you want it. You can even use it to power Etherium-Horn Sorcerer , Sphinx of Magosi , or Clockwork Dragon (and, hey! They have haste, right?). I kind of also want to keep Comet Storm just to have answers to creatures (yeah, this deck focuses on being answered instead of running answers), but cascading into a Comet Storm is always an annoying experience.

July 7, 2012 10:47 p.m.

you should probably add X effect cards in order to get more out of your mana combos

July 7, 2012 11:57 p.m.

The Comprehensive Rules define a mana ability as either...

605.1a An activated ability without a target that could put mana into a players mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.

605.1b A triggered ability without a target that triggers from activating a mana ability and could put mana into a players mana pool when it resolves is a mana ability.

Just saying that Rings of brighthearth can't copy your monolith

Otherwise though very nice deck. I would add some x cost cards though so that you plenty of other win conditions. I mean wouldn't you love to comet storm an edh game and kill every player with a single spell? Or genesis wave for that matter which will pull out your whole deck without having to cast your general over and over.

July 8, 2012 12:36 p.m.

Hmmm.... I guess that combo doesn't work; thanks for the catch. I'll have to rethink that.

And I have thought about the X-cost spells. I did run Comet Storm and Genesis Wave at first, but I found a few issues with having them in the deck:

1) Cascading into them with Maelstrom Wanderer is frustrating. You can't pay their X cost, so they will always waste one of your cascades if you hit them.

2) They have to be in hand the turn that you get infinite mana to be effective. Unlike the sac outlets, you can't play them a few turns earlier and then get infinite mana to instantly win; this leaves them more vulnerable to counterspells and decks that are focused on making you discard. You also can't get infinite mana and then cascade into them (yes, this is that annoying).

With that said, I realize the potential benefits:

1) They work without requiring my general. If he gets tucked with Spell Crumple or Proteus Staff , they ensure I can still win. The fact is, though, I will always have my general. I can play the game so that I ensure I only play Maelstrom Wanderer after I have a sac outlet for him on the field. With the outlet, I can just sac Maelstrom Wanderer in response to whatever one of the 15 tucks (like Bant Charm ) targets him. The only tuck that works fast enough is Spell Crumple , to which I say always call elemental on Cavern of Souls .

2) They're still effective even without infinite mana. Admittedly, they do tend to do more without infinite mana than my sac outlets do, but not enough so that they outweigh the 2 down-sides. Especially since the sac outlets for the most part do accomplish things before you get the infinite mana: card:Ashnod's Altar/Phyrexian Altar /Spawning Pit help power infinite mana combos; Shivan Harvest and Goblin Bombardment give you ways to deal with things your opponent is doing; Claws of Gix is Trinket Mage able (this is important); Greater Good allows you through go through your deck faster to find combo pieces; Perilous Forays ramps (also important). These are helped by the fact that they can be done instant-speed at end of their turn or in response to kill spells/creature board wipes. Altar of Dementia is the only one I'm uncertain about, but I like the fact that it enables a mill win-con (after you cascaded your deck onto the field).

tl;dr: I love my general, he's the only win-con necessary.

July 8, 2012 3:35 p.m.

cards like sigarda shut your deck down completely then

July 9, 2012 5:13 a.m.

i mean angel of jubilation

July 9, 2012 5:14 a.m.

You mean just Angel of Jubilation ? I don't think there is any other card similar to it? If someone happens to play it (or some unknown card that is similar), I should kill it: Chandra Nalaar , Triskelion , Contagion Engine . In fact, even Capsize deals with it long enough to get around its restriction. Then there's always the chance of getting Clockwork Dragon or Sphinx of Magosi and pumping the infinite mana into them/ keep swinging with my general (with its 7 power thats most likely hasting out on turn 5) at the opponent.

A bigger worry that I have is playing against a control player who methodically counters the best cards in my infinite mana combos.Cutting off the mana to cast my general more than once is a serious problem, and its actually likely to happen. Then there's the luck factor of not finding a combo in time (especially against something like a Kaalia of the Vast deck).

July 9, 2012 11:22 p.m.

why is there no Deadeye Navigator i can pull off an infinite turn combo using Deadeye Navigator , Peregrine Drake , Time Warp and Mnemonic Wall

July 12, 2012 10:28 p.m.

4 card combo that only works by itself and nothing else in the EDH deck...doesn't seem worth it. just using tamiyo and time warp is enough

July 13, 2012 2:06 a.m.

I made this same comment about rings to someone else and what he said is that rings is used with mana vault and basat monolith. you tap both for three, then pay three to untap basalt monolith, pay two to copy that ability and untap mana vault and then repeat.

July 13, 2012 9:54 a.m.

Oh, so that turn one win does work. Awesome. I knew there was a way to get infinite mana with rings and basalt monolith. I had forgotten that you could use it to untap other artifacts.

I would totally run Deadeye Navigator if it triggered my general, but without that or more combos with him, he's not worth it.

I've also thought more about Comet Storm : It's a creature answer that my deck is missing. The versatility and responsiveness it provides makes it worth the occasional bad cascade, I think.

July 13, 2012 12:47 p.m.

maybe Charmbreaker Devils? with so few instants and sorceries you're bound to get something good at least and recover from bad cascades

July 13, 2012 1 p.m.

maybe Charmbreaker Devils? with so few instants and sorceries you're bound to get something good at least and recover from bad cascades

July 13, 2012 1 p.m.

maybe Charmbreaker Devils? with so few instants and sorceries you're bound to get something good at least and recover from bad cascades

July 13, 2012 1 p.m.

oh dear...I'm sorry for the spam comments...worthless internet connection

July 13, 2012 1:32 p.m.

I can't cascade into Insurrection , so there are currently only 5 targets in my deck for Charmbreaker Devils : Comet Storm , Capsize , Word of Seizing , Rite of Replication , and Fabricate .

Coincidentally, the first four are the most responsive cards in the deck, and the last one is the best tutor. This does make it rather tempting, but this would dedicate another slot to being reactive, where the focus of the deck is to be proactive. I think I have enough answers after the re-addition of Comet Storm and can instead focus on finding as many infinite mana engines as possible.

July 14, 2012 3:19 p.m.

i'd suggest getting rid of word of seizing since the other cards either help you build your combo or can bring huge result to the table since you're often able to make so much mana

July 14, 2012 7:24 p.m.

I agree. I recently came across Overabundance . I think this card has a lot of potential, so I'll try that out instead.

July 15, 2012 8:55 p.m.

well its the same as mana flare, except that it hurts you in addition and requires a secondary color, so it would be easier to pull out due to only needing a single red mana and 2 colorless

July 16, 2012 12:28 a.m.

I've actually been considering Mana Flare for a while now, but I never liked how much it can help the opponent. The extra green required shouldn't be an issue (this deck is tri-color to begin with), and I I feel like the damage done by Overabundance helps me a lot more. Playtesting should reveal whether this works.

July 16, 2012 1:18 a.m.

well they both help opponents, most people won't mind the one damage from overabundance, but mana flare helps mitigate some of the aggro your deck might draw during a game since EDH is a 4 player format

July 16, 2012 12:56 p.m.

The little playtesting I've been able to do in 4-player has never had me drawing any aggro from the other players. This deck just sort of chills in the background until it combos off. Unfortunately, it often combo'ed a little too late. Another mana doubler will help with comboing faster, and the damage on Overabundance just helps keep an opponent from abusing it too much.

July 17, 2012 7:49 p.m.

I played a good amount with this deck this past weekend, and I found that Overabundance just helps the opponent too much. Good opponents will just take the life-loss and run away with the game before I even untap. We're going with Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger now.

July 22, 2012 9 p.m.

vorinclex is a good choice, also since you bring praetor's, you might want to try out jin-gitaxius since he gives you draw to help bring out your combo

July 23, 2012 8:01 a.m.

Isn't there a limit to how many times your general can die?

July 31, 2012 9:39 a.m.

@deedeedee401: He's a bit too slow for my liking. I'm not referring to his 10 cmc (I can pay that on turn 5 or 6 easy enough), but the fact that his card draw doesn't help me until a turn later. In that turn, the entire table will suddenly start hating on me, and I don't want to be drawing that much hate.

@Jarrod_0067: I've never heard of one. The official rules for commander are at http://mtgcommander.net/rules.php

I don't see any such rule in there, so until someone shows me otherwise, I'm sticking by the deck idea.

July 31, 2012 7:31 p.m.

I take the comment about Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur back. I just saw that it has flash. It's going in.

July 31, 2012 7:37 p.m.

for a great deck, you need to overcome all difficulties that an opponent can throw at you. my teneb deck can board wipe anything you do so i can pull off infinite combos that you have in your graveyard. you have no counter cards so i can get away with it. and a counter can screw up your deck. when i playtested it with sin triplets (copy and paste on deck search) i took away the combos and held off the deck long enough to pull of the combo for the win. the counter part is easy to add. i do not see a purpose with Claws of Gix when infinite damage and infinite poison counters can doom your deck. not to be rude or anything but without countering spells like Counterspell or Cancel can screw up the deck.

August 1, 2012 10:58 a.m.

Claws of Gix is a Trinket Mage able sac outlet. The infinite life combo with it is funny because it is never relevant: The process of getting infinite life also puts the entire deck onto the field; choose an additional infinite combo (most likely direct damage).

Main reason I don't run regular counterspells is because you can't cascade into them. I do have Ertai, Wizard Adept . though. He's as good if not better than any regular counterspell: Because of Maelstrom Wanderer , you can always use him as soon as he comes out, and his effect is repeatable every turn. Truth be told, though, I really don't like leaving mana open for counterspells: I'd rather play my threat and leave it to the opponent to deal with it.

August 1, 2012 7:40 p.m.

the good combo is to get cascading overdone is with Deadeye Navigator and Maelstrom Wanderer so you get whatever card you want and screw over the opponent.

August 2, 2012 12:59 p.m.

Deadeye Navigator doesn't interact with Maelstrom Wanderer ? Deadeye Navigator only interacts with ETB and leave the battlefield effects, but Maelstrom Wanderer 's cascade requires him to be re-cast.

It would be awesome if I were able get infinite cascade without first getting infinite mana, but I have yet to find a way to do it. It's not for a lack of trying, though...

August 2, 2012 7:12 p.m.

do the Deadeye Navigator , Peregrine Drake , for mana. then use Unsummon to return Maelstrom Wanderer to hand and play for the infinite mana and super cascade.

August 3, 2012 4:21 p.m.

i forgot to include Mnemonic Wall

August 3, 2012 4:22 p.m.

Mnemonic Wall and Unsummon ? You do realize that the sac outlets are almost always better for the purpose of getting the general to be cast-able again, right? I've found that running seven is enough to have gotten at least one by the time you want it.

In any case, Deadeye Navigator and Peregrine Drake do make another infinite mana combo, and I am already running Palinchron . It'd also provide infinite r/g with Bloom Tender . I do also have a few other nice ETB effects... It's definitely something to consider. Looking at my list, the only thing I can see it replacing is Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur /Sphinx of Magosi . I guess this big blue creature slot is giving me the hardest time....

August 3, 2012 8:36 p.m.

well i have Sin Triplets and it is just one big combo. i get my ideas from it and one combo links to another and ect. but it isnt the best because i do not have many cards due to budget restrictions and location to nearest card store so it is just on the cards i do have. the cards that i could need are easible obtainable and can be traded. if you have any suggestions you have i will look into the combo and see if it works.

August 5, 2012 10:22 p.m.

They banned Primeval Titan ! D=

Is it worth running Expedition Map now?

September 30, 2012 6:55 p.m.

You are running green, so Crop Rotation for the win! :-D

September 30, 2012 8:17 p.m.

I've never seen Crop Rotation before; it is a pretty cool card. But I've recently been thinking about more ramp, and I think Palladium Myr is good. I'm going to try that out.

October 1, 2012 8:11 p.m.

Multiple problems with what people have said so far.

You CAN use Rings of Brighthearth to copy Basalt Monolith 's untap ability (oracle text, guys), but you the copied ability still can only be used to untap Basalt Monolith . So you tap Basalt Monolith for 3, use that 3 to put Basalt Monolith 's untap ability on the stack, copy it with Rings of Brighthearth using 2 mana from another source. The copied ability resolves, tap Basalt Monolith again for 3 mana, the initial untap ability resolves, tap again for 3 mana, thus bringing in enough mana to get infinite mana.

Now, onto this turn 1 EDH win that doesn't work. Number in parenthesis indicates amount of mana in mana pool.

-Land, tap (1)

-Sol Ring (0), tap (2)

-Mana Vault (1), tap (4)

-Mox Opal (4), tap (5)

-Voltaic Key (4), tap (3), untap Mana Vault

-tap Mana Vault (6)

-Basalt Monolith (3), tap (6)

-Rings of Brighthearth (3)

-untap Basalt Monolith with its untap ability (0), the opportunity to copy that ability with Rings of Brighthearth passes.

-tap Basalt Monolith (3)

-rinse and repeat.

Now all of that aside, I really like this deck. I love wedge commander decks in general. +1

December 11, 2012 1:20 p.m.

Thanks Youdrongo for the very insightful comment! Glad you like the deck; I'm also a big fan of wedge commander decks.

I had been worried I didn't do the math on that turn 1 win correctly, but I had left it alone since I viewed it as a statistical impossibility to begin with. Now that I know it's broken, I wonder if I can somehow squeeze out two more mana that turn to fix it....

December 13, 2012 12:26 a.m.

Alright, I rethought the turn 1 win. Does it work now?

December 19, 2012 2:50 p.m.

Needs Zealous Conscripts for the combo with Gilded Lotus and Deadeye Navigator .

December 30, 2012 9:21 p.m.

I have been increasingly underwhelmed by Perilous Forays , and I do love me some more combo possiblilities. I wonder if there's any more possibilities with Zealous Conscripts .

December 31, 2012 12:10 a.m.

Seems to me like the turn 1 win works. Dandy!

December 31, 2012 10:26 a.m.

=D

January 2, 2013 1:04 a.m.

No Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ? I like him + any cards like Pestermite when using wanderer

January 18, 2013 6:20 p.m.

Tidewater Minion , Aphetto Alchemist and Fatestitcher are ways to go infinite too, either with Freed from the Real /card:Pemmin's Aura or Rings of Brighthearth (and anything that makes 2 / 3 mana respectively)

I feel those would combo out easier than Utopia Mycon or Mul Daya Channelers etc.

January 18, 2013 6:41 p.m.

Also, Soldevi Excavations is a land to combo out on, and helps you dig for infinite mana puzzle pieces. I'm not sure if you're running enough islands to support it tho, just throwing the idea out there.

January 18, 2013 6:43 p.m.

I really like that Soldevi Excavations ; thanks for pointing that out. I also replaced Mul Daya Channelers with Krosan Restorer .

February 20, 2013 2:06 a.m.

I made another sweep of changes. Tossed in Fatestitcher and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker , among other things. I really like the position the deck is in now.

February 20, 2013 5:41 p.m.

Fabricate , Transmute Artifact , Reshape , Long-Term Plans , Worldly Tutor , Sylvan Tutor , card:Summoner's Pact, Gamble , Mystical Tutor , and maybe even Imperial Recruiter would help speed up your combos.

February 21, 2013 2:26 p.m.

I have thought a lot about running more tutors, but I've ultimately decided that I really don't like them. This deck is my experiment with how many different infinite mana combos I can stuff into one deck; I really enjoy seeing the combos appear, without me just pulling out one of the pieces from my library.

With that said, I do actually run Fabricate , and I'm still torn about not running Transmute Artifact or Reshape .

February 22, 2013 2:37 a.m.

by the way, idk if this question has been answered yet, but the rings/monolith does work with Basalt Monolith .

all you have to do is tap Basalt Monolith , 3 mana.

pay 3 to untap, copy with Rings of Brighthearth , two "untap Basalt Monolith " activations on the stack.

let one resolve, tap Basalt Monolith , you have three more.

the other resolves, tap Basalt Monolith to produce 3 more mana.

it's an engine that basically reads "5: add 6 mana to your mana pool."

May 14, 2013 7:12 p.m.