- 1x Bubbling Muck
- 1x Dark Petition
- 1x Demonic Tutor
- 1x Dimir Machinations
- 1x Doomsday
- 1x Duress
- 1x Faithless Looting
- 1x Gamble
- 1x Grim Tutor
- 1x Imperial Seal
- 1x Inquisition of Kozilek
- 1x Night's Whisper
- 1x Overmaster
- 1x Praetor's Grasp
- 1x Pyroclasm
- 1x Recoup
- 1x Rite of Flame
- 1x Shattering Spree
- 1x Thoughtseize
- 1x Toxic Deluge
- 1x Wheel of Fortune
- 1x Yawgmoth's Will
- 1x Ancient Tomb
- 1x Arid Mesa
- 1x Badlands
- 1x Blackcleave Cliffs
- 1x Blood Crypt
- 1x Bloodstained Mire
- 1x Cavern of Souls
- 1x City of Brass
- 1x Command Tower
- 1x Graven Cairns
- 1x Lake of the Dead
- 1x Mana Confluence
- 1x Marsh Flats
- 1x Mountain
- 1x Peat Bog
- 1x Polluted Delta
- 1x Scalding Tarn
- 1x Sulfurous Springs
- 9x Swamp
- 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- 1x Verdant Catacombs
- 1x Wooded Foothills
- 1x Ad Nauseam
- 1x Burnout
- 1x Cabal Ritual
- 1x Chaos Warp
- 1x Dark Ritual
- 1x Desperate Ritual
- 1x Dismember
- 1x Fire Covenant
- 1x Plunge into Darkness
- 1x Pyretic Ritual
- 1x Pyroblast
- 1x Rain of Filth
- 1x Rakdos Charm
- 1x Red Elemental Blast
- 1x Slaughter Pact
- 1x Smelt
- 1x Undying Evil
- 1x Vampiric Tutor
Winds of Change seems like an odd choice for a wheel effect. If you need to refill your hand after a disrupted combo it doesn't give you any extra cards to work with.
Also, how do you feel about Simian Spirit Guide? Or are you set on the current number of ritual effects?
February 10, 2017 1:39 a.m.
Hi PrecintSix6Six, thanks for coming and taking a look at the deck!
Winds of Change is sort of in an odd spot in this deck, and is likely to see a change in the future. You are correct, in that it is a poor wheel the majority of the time.
It currently holds it's spot for the following reasons;
It works as an early game filter, if you happen to start with some great early ramp or land cards, but not much of anything else, you can use it to filter your remaining cards into something else, similar to a looting effect.
It's a great card to run off Ad-Nauseum, in those occasions you happen to draw 25 cards, but none of which are the ones you wanted.
It's a great, cheap disruption card that can play around a good deal of stax thanks to it's cheap cost. When a player across from you has painstakingly tutored into a wincon that you don't have a real way to interact with (the cost of BR decks!), you can attempt to force them to drop the cards they spent so many resources on.
Simian Spirit Guide is absent due to our already heavy use of rituals, his cmc hit off ad-naus, and that he cannot be recast with things like Yawgmoths Will or Past in Flames after being used.
February 10, 2017 2:02 a.m.
Love it and fantastic write up! +1
February 10, 2017 1:41 p.m.
Doug4130Burnout vs Imp's is still in debate form. Currently, Burnout is holding that spot because it not only works as hard protection, but it allows card draw to replace itself. It also can be cast with R, leaving our all important B mana untouched.
The obvious downside is that it only works against Blue Spells, but that's to our rush game plan, those are often the ones interacting with us to stop Doomsday or tutoring
Imps is more limited in it's use, in that it's nice to redirect counterspells to itself, but is more limited if being used for removal redirection (with the possibility that Grenzo, for example, is the only legal target).
More importantly, however, is that Imp's on a Doomsday turn requires an additional black mana with are often in short supply being required for so many other spells, which still need to operate.
Burnout edges out Imp's for largely that reason: We can cast Burnout without impacting our available black mana.
If your meta is very light on Blue players, Imp's is definately the obvious swap.
February 10, 2017 3:55 p.m.
I just want to say that when I first started looking at the cards in this deck, I couldn't even figure out how the hell it wins. After reading the description, I am just blown away.
February 14, 2017 1:48 p.m.
Ditto, Jmax13 ... ditto.
This deck is very creative and it seems like a blast to pilot! Decks like this are the reason EDH exists and will always be fun. I love that feeling of sitting down to a table across from Azami, Lady of Scrolls, Zur the Enchanter and Leovold, Emissary of Trest with something unassuming like Grenzo. The mutual chuckle followed by an insane win makes for some memorable MTG. Hats off to you, sir.
February 15, 2017 5:20 a.m.
Fantastic primer! As someone who just recently started playing a Grenzo deck, I thoroughly enjoyed reading this and discovering the Mimic-Redcap combo. What are your thoughts on Goblin Recruiter as backup for doomsday getting exiled to help assemble the combo? Would it be worth a spot? Thanks again for the great read!
February 17, 2017 10:05 p.m.
Jmax13 Thanks for checking the deck out. I appreciate you taking the time to read it!
darkjeti Thanks! I hope you give it a try. It's nice the first couple games when people think they can just ignore you, spam their interaction on each other, and you just drop DD on t3 while they're tapped.
Pseudo-ception Hi! I'm happy to hear you've started Grenzo. He's great fun. Regretfully, recruiter still leaves us in the pickle of not being able to fetch out mimic. He's a strong choice if you're trying to draw into a naturally, but with this particular decks all-in Doomsday strategy, he's a dead card any turn before Doomsday plan fails.
February 18, 2017 3:04 a.m.
Hey, I have a budget question.
March 3, 2017 11:38 p.m.
Hi Ender666666 . Either of those would be suitable if you're holding onto the rest of the list. If you're using more budget replacements, you may also consider running Dark Tutelage to flow with the pace of a slower game. You can also replace it with something more meta dependent, like Conqueror's Flail or Phyrexian Revoker if it becomes meta necessary until you get the card.
Out of both options, however, I would be more inclined to run Diabolic Tutor, simply due to the low creature count in the deck making it rather unlikely you'll have the fodder you need for it's cost.
March 4, 2017 3:03 a.m.
For those of us who are following this list, would you be able to post what you add and remove when you make changes?
March 5, 2017 7:41 p.m.
Ender666666 - Hi Ender
Just last night I added another section that carries both of those.
Previously I just had the card test log, but those changes are becoming permanent so last night I added in the "Card Change Log!" where you can find the permanent changes to the deck!
March 5, 2017 8:39 p.m.
Also, just in case this comes up and you play on paper. There are 2 versions of Mogg Raider.
The Anthologies one, which tappedout uses (and is still purchasable) has a mana cost of RR.
The Tempest one (identical card) has a mana cost of R.
The Tempest one is the official one according to WoTC! So make sure you're running that one!
March 5, 2017 8:48 p.m.
March 5, 2017 8:56 p.m.
For anyone following this deck, please note this last weekend saw some changes go into the deck and primer.
Please see "Why Grenzo" for a discussion of avoiding Rest in Peace and Leyline effects.
Please see "A Second Chance!" to a discussion of our hot new tech Undying Evil.
Please see the "Testing Log!" to see what's currently on the chopping block
Please see "Card Change Log" to see the big changes that occurred in the deck!
Feel free to ask me any questions here, on reddit, or on the competitiveEDH discord server.
March 7, 2017 1:32 a.m.
I played this tonight at my local store and did quite well. Very happy with your work so far.
March 8, 2017 11:21 p.m.
I'm incredibly glad to hear that! Thanks for the support!
March 9, 2017 3:59 a.m.
Played it again last night and took 3 of 4 matches with it (although the competition wasn't playing highly tuned decks). Overall I like the feel and how it plays.
I'd be interested in hearing more about the thought process behind the changes you make to the list. I've found it a bit hard to get enough red mana to hard cast Kiji-Jiki if necessary.
March 12, 2017 6:55 p.m.
I'll do a short couple sentence writeup on the card change log tonight to bring more insight into that.
You're right. Hardcasting Kiki is rough, as we often try to avoid that route when possible. it truly is our backup's backup plan, so it can be a struggle for sure.
Often when hardcast to win I turn to Adnaus and massive filtering to draw into the Redcap combo, as it can be done with more black mana for 3 total mana less than hardcasting a KIZC. Yes, it is one extra card, but with our curve, AD-Naus should get you there.
March 12, 2017 7:31 p.m.
I just noticed it when an opponent left a juicy ZC sitting on the battlefield and all I had to do was find KJ and cast him for the win
March 12, 2017 7:40 p.m.
What about a card like Final Fortune to snag us an extra turn to "go off"?
March 15, 2017 12:24 p.m.
It's neat, and something I've never thought of to include, to be honest.
I'll add it to the test log once I figure out a suitable cut, and do the math to see if I need to retool landbase to support it.
March 15, 2017 9:39 p.m.
Cool. I figured that it might be what we need to steal a few more games. As far as what to cut, I was thinking of Burnout. As much as I love it and like seeing it played, its scope is very narrow plus it's also a two CMC Red spell so swapping them should be fairly painless. I do think that the mana base does need a few more mountains though.... Maybe 3 mountain, 7 swamps?
March 16, 2017 9:32 a.m.
Seething song, and by extension altering the land base to move heavier into mountains both came resulted in the same problem:
We end up with a lot of red mana in a deck that really only needs 1 red mana to win and RR total to support.
Extra mountains diluted our ability to acquire the massive amounts of B we needed to go off, a d weakened our muck lines.
Seething song has an similar issue in that it provides with with a healthy amount of R, but we have nothing to spend it on, while increasing our CMC.
March 16, 2017 10:51 p.m.
I see, and agree, it doesn't make sense to blow out on mana we can't use
March 16, 2017 11:09 p.m.
I don't have a Blackcleave Cliffs at the moment so was looking for a substitute... Settling in on Gemstone Mine. The way I see it, it ALWAYS comes into play untapped, It gets us any colour, and the limit of 3 uses doesn't REALLY matter when we expect to be comboing off at that point. Thoughts?
Friday Night I played 3 matches with this deck and won every round, including a turn-3 win against a very tuned Ydris-Storm deck. Overall I'm loving it and am having excellent results
March 20, 2017 7:18 p.m.
I'm glad to hear you're having success with the deck!
I'm also testing Final Fortune, but have yet to draw it myself, so let me know if you manage to get it going.
Dragonskull Summit is probably the most straight across exchange for Blackcleave, but Gemstone will certainly work in a pinch if the stax meta is low in your pods!
March 20, 2017 7:21 p.m.
Gemstone had a couple problems for us:
Our natural draw isn't where we need it to be to be able to sacrifice a card to the effect.
Outside the opening hand, it's lack of colour production slows off our win
We can't benefit off it from Muck or Lake
So, while it's decent for us in the opening hand, the downsides far outweighed the benefits at this time.
It is a card that we're always look at readding, but currently, unless we get some new Black mana tech from the upcoming sets, it's likely going to stay on the sidelines for now
March 21, 2017 2:11 p.m.
Haven't draw into it enough to make a decision on it. So, still in testing.
March 21, 2017 3:02 p.m.
Here are my questions concerning some card choices I would like to understand if I want to pick this deck up. I'm looking to really shape this list towards my meta and some cuts are gonna be inevitable, just want to make sure I'm not missing something.
Lion's Eye Diamond-- It seems to me like it's not pulling the weight such an overpowered card should be. Aside from being a great enabler when comboed with Yawgmoth's Will, the only realistic way to use Lion's Eye Diamond is towards Grenzo, Dungeon Warden, a purpose that leaves you defenseless to interaction, with no cards in hand to fuel back up. Necropotence is always required to go with Lion's Eye Diamond to gain substantial advantage from the card and even then, I feel like it keeps going back to Yawgmoth's Will here. Am I crazy to disregard such a powerful card for more well-rounded options? Let me know your thoughts.
Victimize-- A tricky card to use. If we have an expendable creature, which we have few of, it provides value IF we also have two good creatures in the bin. Seems to me like Reanimate would cover more ground? Am I crazy or is the possibility of having 2 combo creatures in the yard plus a fodder on the field very slim, even after Doomsday (Since both the Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker combo and the Metallic Mimic combo are stopped by one removal spell, you would get stuck being 1 creature short most of the time)?
That's basically what I was wondering , I'll be testing some weird cards in this shell and report back what I see based on my meta (which can be quite varied). I really like this deck salute everyone who worked on it!
March 22, 2017 10:12 p.m.
Lions' Eye Diamond is a powerhouse, in the same way any rocks are a powerhouse with Grenzo DD.
We don't cast DD with it, but we crack it in response to a successful DD cast. If DD is resolved, we're already all in. What LED does, however, is for 0 to ensure we can count it against our required land to plug DD. With something like Chrome Mox, or Mox Diamond, etc, we need BBB + both of those rocks to hit our threshold.
With LED, we can ensure we hit that threshold for using Grenzo's ability for 0. With LED, we need: BBB+LED. With almost any other rock/mana source (outside of the double taps like Crypt/Sol), we need BBB+Rock/Rock, or BBB+B(for ritual, etc). This means that we end up needing to cast more things.
Sure, the loss of the hand is regrettable, and we'd always prefer to keep that hand, but LED is another 0 drop to keep us firing on what we do best - win the race to go off. Without it, we just end up needing more cards/ramp/ritual that slow us down or affect our opening hand more. LED is probably one of the best rocks inside of a DD deck simply due to that - it ensures you only need to cast 1 rock to go off, not 2.
Victimize acts a a final backup for the KIZC pile, and while ending in a position that you need to wait a full turn to cast it probably means life is over for you, it does give you that sliver after a failed DD. Reanimate is certainly something you could consider in it's place. If you do, please let me know how it handles, especially after double removal.
Cards that are currently likely to be cut, as per my testing log if you're looking for cuts to add in a reanimate package:
March 25, 2017 9:36 p.m.
Played this yesterday and managed to draw Final Fortune. It worked as expected and allowed me to set up and go off a turn faster. Needless to say, I was happy to draw it when I did, and I'm happy with how it performed.
March 25, 2017 10:47 p.m.
Clay_Puppington, Has Ricochet Trap been considered as an alternative to Burnout? It has the advantage of better versatility against more colours, and gets a nice discount when responding to Blue disruption.
March 29, 2017 11:16 p.m.
Ender666666 Hi! An early version of the deck did indeed have Richochet Trap in the position of Burnout.
We found over the many early versions, that the extra mana for Burnout was well worth the cost of the card draw, while the colourless and red were almost always available at least as 1R.
Richochet trap saw itself moving further and further to the sideline as the deck got fast, relying more on large ad-nauseum pulls in many games.
With the higher cmc, and the lack of draw, Burnout ended up taking its place.
March 30, 2017 1:54 a.m.
I see, that makes sense. I hadn't seen Ricochet Trap until someone suggested it yesterday.
BTW, Fire Covenant is definitely a champ. I used it twice yesterday and both times it really made a splash.
March 30, 2017 9:12 a.m.
To my readers;
3 big changes can be found in the Card Change Log. Blood Pet, Springleaf Drum, and Simian Spirit Guide have made their way to main board.
I'm adding this comment so there can be a quick record on Simian Spirit Guide, which has currently is added to the mainboard with recent changes. However, while this change is currently more valuable then the card it was replacing, it does find itself likely to be cut in the incredibly near future for all of the problems it has (listed in the comments above).
If you don't happen to currently own one, I'd recommend holding off on rushing out to buy one for the next few weeks. Over the next little while I have ample time, and a few tournaments on the docket, so it will be given a strict test sooner rather than later.
March 30, 2017 7:45 p.m.
Hey, I love this deck, first off, and Ive been running a budgetish version for a while at my LGS for commander night, and Ive started running against Zur Stax. I feel like I can win through most artifact hate or if I get a fast draw, but Arcane Laboratory has just been killing me. Any advice on other cards I can add to beat enchantment hate?
April 21, 2017 11:20 a.m.
GrizzIebear- Arcane Lab can be a nuisance, but thankfully we don't end up playing that many spells in a turn. However, much like it's other stax contemporaries can certainly cause us issues.
Black and Red don't come with great enchantment removal, and the artifact availability inside of our curve doesn't give us much to be desired.
Likely, outside of a potential T1 Ratchet Bomb (which I wouldn't add in a full list, but might help you out), it's probably just going to come down to you holding up an early answer (using tutor 1 to grab REB or Chaos Warp, etc and then finding DD).
Thankfully, you should be loaded with more tutors than most players, and you have a greater chance of mulliganing into a counter or answer then they are on Arcane Lab.
Sadly, not having great usable enchantment removal is the price of BR.
If something crosses my mind, I'll hit you back with some better suggestions.
April 21, 2017 4:23 p.m.
Thanks for the response. I kinda figured there wasnt much more that would work, but I thought Id ask in case I was missing some hidden gem. Chaos Warp vs Zur the Enchanter has just felt so bad. I guess killing him helps a bit, but it feels like its mostly a matter of just winning faster.
April 25, 2017 8:47 a.m.
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|Date added||2 months|
|Last updated||2 days|
This deck is Commander / EDH legal.
|Folders||Commander ideas, EDH Resources, comander, To Build, EDH, edh, asdf, Referance, Shit I need to make, cEDH, See all 17|
|Top rank||#6 on 2017-02-20|