- 4x Aether Hub
- 4x Botanical Sanctum
- 4x Forest
- 2x Game Trail
- 1x Island
- 1x Lumbering Falls
- 2x Mountain
- 2x Spirebluff Canal
- 1x Wandering Fumarole
- 3x Bristling Hydra
- 4x Glorybringer
- 3x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
- 4x Rogue Refiner
- 4x Servant of the Conduit
- 4x Skyrider Elf
- 4x Sylvan Advocate
Comments View Archive
Interesting update and thoughts - essentially this is now an "elves-themed" Temur energy variant.
But this:I can even play Rishkar and tap him to crew Harvester before I use his counters trigger which allows me to then put a counter on Harvester.- doesn't work that way. When Rishkar ETB you have to specify the targets that are already there, but Harvester is an artifact still at that time so it can't be targeted.
May 20, 2017 6:51 p.m.
Also, what are ur thoughts on how would an up-to-meta Sultai Constrictor-Skyrider deck look like nowadays?
May 20, 2017 6:53 p.m.
Hey Randsome, thanks for your feedback.
Rishkar, Peema Renegade and Aethersphere Harvester work together because both their abilities use the stack. Rishkar's ETB trigger and Harvester's crew activated ability both go on the stack. Crew is an activated ability. Once both abilities are on the stack I can choose what order they resolve. When a creature enters the battlefield it can be tapped to use another activated ability that requires a creature to be tapped such as crew. When Rishkar ETB before I resolve his trigger I can tap him to crew Harvester, the crew ability then also goes on the stack. Once both Rishkar's trigger and the crew of Harvester are on the stack I can order them to happen in any way I choose. Choosing to resolve the crew of Harvester on the stack first makes Harvester a creature. I can then resolve Rishkar's trigger second which lets me put a counter on Harvester since Harvester is now a creature.
The same thing happens with the stack when another Rishkar ETB when one is already on the battlefield. Both the legendary rule and Rishkar's ETB trigger go on the stack. I can choose which order I want them to happen. Choosing Rishkar's trigger first lets me put counters on other creatures even one of the Rishkars. Second I resolve the legendary rule which then kills one of my choice of Rishkar.
An updated Sultai Energy Elves list:
- 4x Servant of the Conduit
- 4x Sylvan Advocate
- 4x Skyrider Elf
- 4x Winding Constrictor
- 4x Rishkar, Peema Renegade
- 4x Verdurous Gearhulk
- 2x Walking Ballista
- 4x Attune with Aether
- 4x Fatal Push
- 3x Grasp of Darkness
- 2x Aethersphere Harvester
- 4x Aether Hub
- 4x Blooming Marsh
- 3x Botanical Sanctum
- 4x Forest
- 3x Swamp
- 1x Island
- 1x Hissing Quagmire
- 1x Lumbering Falls
May 20, 2017 8:21 p.m.
multimedia, thanks for your feedback as well)
1) As for the deck: it seems kinda close to my initial thoughts, which kinda reinforces my opinion on playing it. Would u replace Balistas with direct Planeswalker removal - Ruinous\Never? I kinda lack those and amn't that into STD to buy them for what they cost nowadays =_=
Also, what are the defining differences between strengths and weaknesses for both Sultai and Temur takes on this archetypes? Both seem pretty well equiped with removal, Constrictor rapidly boosts direct power through counters and Temur wins with energy utilizing - something like that?Also, another black's plus is Energy Bob, i think. Would u play it there if we aren't directly tied to elves?
2) As for the rules: while some premises and final results are correct, it seems u have a few things mixed up there:2.1 As soon as Rishkar hits the table his ability goes on the stack and it demands to chose targets from among creatures that are already there. Sure, in response to this trigger u can crew Aether with him which will produce a stack like this: Rishkar's ETB --> crewing harvester. And result would be: Harvester becomes a creature, but it doesn't matter for counters as targets for them are already assigned. This would work if u have another creature on the table when u are playing Rishkar, which'll produce a sequence like this: play Rishkar --> crew Aether with a creature already on the table --> Rishkar resolves --> Rishkar's ability goes on the stack with targets on Rishkar\another creature and Harvester --> counters are placed as we intend.
2.2 While legendary rule does demand that u choose one creature with a particular name to be left alive, it's a State Based Action (if i remember correctly those are named like that) and they don't use stack, so u don't have a chance to respond - as soon as second Rishkar hits the table u have to chose one of them to be left alive, another one dies and u get to decide where to put counters. So if u somehow managed to have three Rishkars ETB under ur control at the same time, as the first thing to do u'll have to chose one to stay and only after that u'll have to define targets for all three counters triggers. So u won't have a chance to crew a vehicle with new Rishkar while deciding to leave the old one on the battlefield.
Though, u don't have to believe my words just like that and i suggest u consult a judge u know on these, as this technicalities might cost u the game sometime.
May 21, 2017 6:17 a.m.
Randsome, Walking Ballista is very good with Winding Constrictor and seems like an auto include in a deck using the snake, but if you don't want to get Ballista's then you could use it's slots for anything really, Negate is even an option. Never / Return or Ruinous Path are fine in it's place, but I don't think you really need any more removal main deck, 4x Fatal Push and 3x Grasp of Darkness is enough. Aethersphere Harvester is good at pressuring Planeswalkers. Saying this I would definitely sideboard 1-2x Never or Path as some Planeswalker removal. I would also sideboard 4x Transgress the Mind which can hit any Planeswalker.
Some possible cards you could use in Ballista's place who go with the theme and with the snake are:
- Longtusk Cub
- Glint-Sleeve Siphoner
- Rogue Refiner
- Bristling Hydra
- Tireless Tracker
- Rhonas the Indomitable
As far as strengths and weaknesses of Sultai and Temur I think it really comes down to which kind of deck you want to play. Even though Sutali has energy I consider it more of a counters deck because the power of Winding Constrictor is in counters not energy. Temur is more of an energy deck that's also using counters, but energy is the main theme. If you like energy play Temur and if you like counters than play Sultai.
Sultai Strengths and Weaknesses:
- Better manabase having access to 7-8x fast lands that can make green mana.
- More powerful curve of Winding Constrictor, Rishkar, Peema Renegade and Verdurous Gearhulk. By itself a curve of Constrictor into Rishkar can be game winning.
- Better sideboard options for Marvel matchups and control matchups. Transgress the Mind and Negate can both stop Marvel. Transgress can hit Torrential Gearhulk.
- Less reliant on energy if keeping Elves.
- Constrictor is a huge target for removal and unfortunately the deck very much relies on him to be alive without him the power level drops a lot.
- Problematic removal options, other than Fatal Push all other removal has double black casting cost. Push is ok, but not great right now in Standard.
- No cheap removal that exiles the creature it kills.
- Not as versatile or as many creature options in black.
- Access to no three mana sweeper that does 3 damage to all creatures. Yahenni's Expertise is as close as it gets.
Temur Strengths and Weaknesses:
- Can still function without losing a key card in other words there's no Constrictor. Less reliant on a nice curve.
- More cards make and use energy. The energy theme is front and center.
- Magma Spray is a very good removal spell right now in Standard.
- Harnessed Lightning is unconditional creature removal that with energy can kill easier than Fatal Push.
- Access to three mana 3 damage to all creatures sweepers.
- Glorybringer adds an additional power level to the top end.
- Worst manabase having to use reveal lands from Shadows Over Innistrad which can be problematic at times.
- Worst sideboard options for Marvel and control matchups. Other than Negate and other counterspells.
- Relies much more on energy to overall function.
In my opinion red is better as the third color for this deck than black right now because of Magma Spray, Harnessed Lightning, Glorybringer and Radiant Flames. These cards do more for the deck than Winding Constrictor, Fatal Push, Grasp of Darkness and Transgress the Mind can. I like the combination of Spray and Harnessed over Push and Grasp because Spray can exile Scrapheap Scrounger and/or Dread Wanderer, especially Scrapheap because he's such a menace in Mardu. Spray also hits a ton of creatures in both Zombies and Mardu making it not just for the recursive creatures.
Creatures that Spray can't kill Harnessed can due to the amount of energy the deck can make. Glorybringer is great at pressuring or killing Planewalkers and gives me another flying threat. Putting counters on Glorybringer is also nasty fun. Flames in combination with Spray is very potent vs Zombies. I've found that I really need a sweeper to consistently beat Zombies because the battlefield can be flooded with them very fast. Red has access to two three mana sweepers that can deal 3 damage to all creatures, Flames and Sweltering Suns. Doing 3 damage is important because of Lord of the Accursed. Black has Yahenni's Expertise which can kill 3 power creatures, but it costs four mana instead of three. Flames can also only do 2 damage to each creature if I only use two different colors of mana to cast it. It's flexible this can be relevant as a one sided board wipe.
Push is a great removal spell, but the strong presence in Standard of both Aetherworks Marvel and Zombies takes it down a notch. Zombies wants you to spend a card to kill a single Zombie this is giving them an advantage. Spray is some what taking away this advantage even though I'm still spending a card to kill a single creature the creature is exiled which is relevant. Marvel plays all three drops except Servant of the Conduit and higher and very few creatures. Push is still excellent in the Mardu Vehicles matchup because it can kill Heart of Kiran, but so can Harnessed.
Thanks for the tips on using the stack. You're right I can't tap Rishkar, Peema Renegade the turn it's played to crew Aethersphere Harvester and then put a counter on Harvester with Rishkar's trigger. I would have to use another creature to first crew Harvester and then play Rishkar. I've been doing this Rishkar and Havester play for a while now and no one has said it's wrong, haha... My mistake is I didn't know that if an ETB trigger has to have a target(s) the target(s) must be declared the moment the trigger goes on the stack. I was declaring targets when the trigger resolved from the stack which is wrong.
May 22, 2017 1:45 a.m.
I've done a swap of the number of Glorybringer and Verdurous Gearhulk. 4x Glorybringer gives me better odds to draw it and get it into play turn four or five. I've also increased the number of Mountain to 3x cutting 1x Forest to make room. Glorybringer is double red so having another red source that doesn't come into play tapped really helps.
The difference between the Dragon and Gearhulk is the Dragon's haste. Creature removal is good right now and I get more value faster out of the Dragon than Gearhulk. I've also found the Dragon to be much better than Gearhulk in both Mardu Vehicles and Zombie matchups, especially Mardu as a great way to deal with Gideon, Ally of Zendikar. Gearhulk is also an artifact, the Dragon isn't, which is relevant.
I was sideboarding a third Glorybringer, but I don't need to do that anymore, I cut it for a third Manglehorn. I like Manglehorn in both Marvel and Mardu Vehicles matchups, especially Mardu because it can kill Heart of Kiran and slow down Scrapheap Scrounger.
Small Summary, Sideboard Cards for Matchups (Look for a more in depth guide in the Sideboard Card Choices section soon):
- Marvel: 4x Negate, 2x Manglehorn and 2x Tireless Tracker. Negate is the best card in the matchup because it can counter Marvel as well as both Chandras. I need all four Negates because I want to at least have one turn four. Tracker comes in as a way to get some card advantage if I can disrupt Marvel. This deck has no way to stop Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger.
- Zombies: 3x Radiant Flames, 1x Magma Spray. Flames and Spray are the best cards in the matchup. Spray because it can exile either Dread Wanderer, Relentless Dead or Scrapheap Scrounger. A heavy removal suite of 4x Spray, 4x Harnessed Lightning and 3x Flames is very potent and needed. Harnessed is important because it can kill Lord of the Accursed and/or large Diregraf Colossus, double Lord can make Zombies more than 3 power which gets around Flames. Sometimes I need to kill a Lord before I can sweep the board. Metallic Mimic is also a problem in this matchup it's best to kill it because it can make Zombies more than 3 power.
- Mardu Vehicles: 3x Manglehorn and 1x Magma Spray. This matchup is all about killing or delaying Heart of Kiran. Spray can exile Scrapheap Scrounger as well as kill a turn one Toolcraft Exemplar. Glorybringer although not a sideboard card is one of the best cards for the matchup because it can help me to stabilize being a terrific counter play to Gideon, Ally of Zendikar.
- Izzet Control: 4x Negate, 3x Tireless Tracker and 1x Manglehorn. Negate is to stop Glimmer of Genius, Sweltering Suns and protect Tracker. Glimmer is the card that puts Control very far ahead. Suns is the Control players sweeper of choice and it can wreck me if it resolves. Tracker is the card I want to see in this matchup because if I can protect it, it can out card advantage Control. Censor is something I have to look out for always be aware of needing an extra mana for my spells.
- Golgari Energy: 3x Tireless Tracker and 1x Rhonas the Indomitable some versions are playing Heart of Kiran if so 3x Manglehorn also. Fatal Push is the removal spell of choice from my opponent making 3 drops much better than 2 drops in this matchup. Tracker comes in as a way to gain card advantage and Rhonas can be a both an attacker and blocker, mostly a great blocker. Storing energy for Harnessed Lightning is very important because my opponent's creatures can get big.
May 25, 2017 8:33 a.m.
Love it! I've been doing a bit of playtesting, and I find that there is a lot of unused energy at the end of matches that goes to waste. Have you noticed anything similar while playing?
May 25, 2017 10:55 p.m.
Doran_The_ButtFighter, thanks for the upvote.
Since adding Rogue Refiner the energy production is very good and I too have had games where a lot of energy is not used. Although, I would rather have a lot of extra energy then not enough. Not having to choose what I want to use energy on instead having enough for everything I want to do makes game play much smoother and more fun.
May 26, 2017 2:02 a.m.
May 26, 2017 10:41 a.m.
Doran_The_ButtFighter, I agree It's best to stay away from Marvel, this is not a Marvel deck. The main reason I mentioned Coup is because it gives us an effect that the deck currently doesn't have. Virtuoso and Hydra are other options for sure. I would learn more towards Virtuoso because it can generate more value with Thopters which have flying. Hydra could also be a sideboard card.
Are you thinking of including one of these cards main deck? If so what are you thinking about cutting for it? Right now I feel the main deck is pretty set with only Verdurous Gearhulk and Magma Spray as the flex spots.
A possible direction to go is to sideboard in Virtuoso when sideboarding out Skyrider Elf. I tend to take out some Skyrider Elf in matchups where I know Fatal Push is my opponent's main removal spell. I do this because wasting energy and a turn to fully converge Skyrider to just have it killed by Push for one mana is pretty bad.
Without having to use energy to converge Skyrider then even more energy is not used. Virtuoso is good vs Push because it's a 3 drop, revolt needs to be triggered before Push can kill it. Our opponent is not going to want to use Push to kill a 1/1 Thopter giving us an advantage. I could see 2-3x Virtuoso in the sideboard to start with and bring them in when Skyrider is taken out. It's possible that Virtuoso is also better than Magma Spray because it does make and use energy and that energy can produce tokens who can be blockers. Spray is here to combat aggro, but Virtuoso can also do this. Delay aggro with Thopters until we can Radiant Flames. Flames does kill Virtuoso and all Thopters though, that's a problem. Your thoughts?
May 26, 2017 9:03 p.m.
I'm thinking of bringing this deck into FNM, how has it been doing? Is it still viable?
June 18, 2017 8:41 p.m.
Since Aetherworks Marvel has been banned this deck is very viable. One of the top decks right now is Temur Energy Midrange; think of this deck as a variation of it with Elves. Glorybringer is very good right now.
The only real difference between this deck and the budget version is the budget has a worse manabase using Evolving Wilds and Cinder Glade with no Botanical Sanctum or Game Trail. I recommend spending some extra money to use the manabase here instead of the budget version manabase.
Tireless Tracker is replaced with Mouth / Feed in the budget version which is obviously not as good, but a fine budget replacement for the Midrange matchups such as Temur Energy and Golgari Energy you want draw in.
I've choosen to main deck Magma Spray because you need it vs Zombies and that deck is very popular right now and the worst matchup. If Zombies aren't a problem at your FNM then you can either cut entirely or move all Spray to the sideboard. Here's a small guide of how I would change the main deck to reflect different most popular matchups at FNM:
- If you're expecting a lot of Midrange decks like Temur Energy or Golgari Energy then replace Magma Spray with Mouth / Feed. In these matchups having a mass draw spell is much better than a spell that only does 2 damage to a creature.
- If you're expecting a lot Aggro like Zombies and Mardu Vehicles then keep Spray main deck with a fourth in the sideboard.
- If Control dominates FNM then replace Spray with more Bristling Hydra; likewise if you find that you're losing to Control then add more Hydra either main deck or sideboard.
- The 4x Negate in the sideboard is for Control, but if no Control then you can cut some Negate for other cards.
Think of it like this Spray is to combat Aggro, Mouth is to out card advantage Midrange and Hydra can be an unkillable nasty threat vs Control. If one of these archetypes dominates your FNM more than the rest then you can adjust to reflect this.
June 19, 2017 12:51 a.m.
Thank you for responding so in depth!
June 19, 2017 1:03 a.m.
ACDAMAN, that's good you have Tracker she along with the manabase: Sanctum, Trail and Fumarole are really the only large price differences between this deck and the budget version. What's your FNM like? Does one deck or a couple dominate or is there a variety of decks?
Good luck at FNM!
June 19, 2017 1:15 a.m.
multimedia Haven't been to FNM in a few weeks, but the last few times control dominated, and a few Marvel decks which probably cycled to other Energy decks. There was also a zombie deck, but I think I'll just focus on the controls.
June 19, 2017 1:31 a.m.
multimedia Going out to buy the cards I need now! I bought a SOI deckbuilder kit a while ago, so I think I've got the lands I need!
June 19, 2017 2:53 p.m.
Any replacements for Rogue Refiner?
June 19, 2017 6:08 p.m.
multimedia, how has the deck been performing as of late?
June 19, 2017 6:18 p.m.
Variux, I'm having fun playing the deck. It had a terrible Marvel matchup, but Marvel is now banned so this deck is much more viable since it has a good matchup vs Temur/GB Energy and Mardu Vehicles. Zombies are a problem.
ACDAMAN, sounds great, that was fast. As far as lands go 4x Aether Hub, 4x Botanical Sanctum are the most important. You can get away with not using Game Trail if they are not of your price range or you can't get them, but I recommend 4x Trail also. Rogue Refiner is a must and are very cheap.
Replacements for Refiner are Tireless Tracker, you said you had 3x Tracker if so just main deck them. There's also Whirler Virtuoso; I used Virtuoso for a while, but he was ultimately cut for other cards. However, he's a fine energy producer replacement for Refiner. A recommend 2x Tracker and 3x Virtuoso if you're choosing this route. Another option is to increase the amount of Bristling Hydra to 3-4x for more energy and main deck Tracker for draw.
June 19, 2017 7:52 p.m.
multimedia I copied your deck and edited it a bit, can you check out the manabase and see if it's ok?
June 23, 2017 5:01 p.m.
I just updated the Deck Strategy section here with a writeup including a new Gameplay portion which I'm not quite done with, but it's a start.
I have some bad news it looks like Ixalan the set after Amonkhet doesn't have Elves. Although not offical yet pictures of the entire rare and mythic rare sheet of cards were leaked and there's not one Elf present. Not having a rare Elf in the set is a pretty good indicator that Elves are not on Ixalan. Dinosaurs and Merfolk appear to be the tribes in green.
If I'm right about no Elves in the Ixalan set then we will have to wait a long time before any new Elves are in Standard until Dominaria, the next set after Ixalan. It releases in April 2018...
June 24, 2017 7:46 a.m.
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|Date added||1 year|
|Last updated||1 day|
This deck is Standard legal.
|Folders||Standard TRS-M15-KTK-ORI, Standard, standard to build, Golgari, Standard, ok, Elves, Standard, Interesting Decks, Inspiration, See all 277|
|Top rank||#3 on 2016-02-07|