control_is_the_new_black, how do you find the deck now?

This is a nice deck but how do you beat Sphinx of the Final Word, Planar Outburst or Flaying Tendrils? And how if your Rise of the Tides countered? I will build this deck. Seems fun to be played

TheLegendz, okay, let's see...

1. Sphinx of the Final Word - it needs 7 mana. If your opponent plays that, then we can rise 15 zombies on our side. Or if we have Thing in the Ice  ^Flip in the board, we can easily flip it to send the sphinx away. Also Engulf the Shore also delays the sphinx 2 turns (if you play on the turn it would attack). Drowner of Hope can't block it, but you will be hitting for 7 while the enemy is hitting for 5. In the end, there are many ways to deal with it, unless you have no cards at all.

2. Planar Outburst? It's a sorcery. I counter. Or I don't counter and use another Rise from the Tides next turn, or a Drowner of Hope. By the way, I always suggest casting Drowner of Hope first over Rise from the Tides. It basically will exhaust all removal answers our opponents may have in hand. Then you can cast the Zombies...

3. Flaying Tendrils - I counter. Same as above if I can't counter for some reason.

4. Virulent Plague - focus on Thing in the Ice  ^Flip and Drowner of Hope as your win-cons. Defend them. Use Compelling Deterrence if you have it on your hand. It is in the sidedeck.

5. If it gets countered - I counter their counter! If Im playing against a blue deck, I know they might have counters, so I wait until I feel I have enough mana/counters before playing the zombies. Or I play if I have 2 of the cards on my hand. Again, I always cast Drowner of Hope first, so even if they have a counter, it will be used already...

6. It is VERY fun! =D

Snow_Lynx Well thanks, You are really kind and generous. I will build this deck, +1. This is the best deck. I didnt realize that this deck is a counter deck :D

TheLegendz, thanks! Im certain you will have a lot of fun with it!

p.s - Well, in my defense, it IS in the deck's name that it is based on counters... =P

How about Warping Wail in here?

Warping Wail requires colorless mana to be cast. Doesnt work with our mana base.

Snow_Lynx What would you put if you have only 2 Drowner of Hope and 2 Thing in the Ice?

That's exactly my case.

xikaos, you would need to playtest. Perhaps one Catalog, one Broken Concentration/Negate or an Adverse Conditions. However, I found that with 3 Thing in the Ice  ^Flip, it can have some reliability. When I used 2, it didn't appear several games, or would appear a bit too late.

Snow_Lynx I agree that 2 is not a reliable number of copies for the secondary wincon of the deck.

I bought only two because they are SO expensive in Brazil that I would buy another reasonable deck with the money of two copies of Thing in the Ice  ^Flip, so for now I need a substitute, which is likely to be Adverse Conditions.

I fell in love imediately with the deck when I first saw him, indeed is the best budget control in standard.

Appreciate your effort building the deck and anwsering questions here on the comments, keep it up bro!

xikaos, you are from Brazil as well? Eu sou de Belo Horizonte, e vc? Tenho jogado na UG aqui. Fiz 2-2 semana passada, mas agora que ajustei o deck estou esperando um 3-1 nessa sexta. Se jogar bem estou ate pensando em participar de torneios regionais em SP, ou GPs. Vamos ver...

O que eu garanto que esse deck muito legal de jogar. Anular muito do que o oponente quer fazer muito gratificante, e quase 100% de chance de vitoria contra outros decks de controle com muito removal.

After playing this deck or a slightly more budget version of it on magic online, i believe it needs more TITI and something else. The deck seems a bit clunky and loses to aggro if you dont see Thing in the Ice  ^Flip and ramp decks put you in an awkward situation. Only decks i have beaten with this countless times is the control mirror as long as that deck doesn't have Chandra and midrange decks.

MrZessty, I have changed the deck from how it was before. It now runs 4 Engulf the Shore and 4 Grip of the Roil and 3 Thing in the Ice  ^Flip in the Main Deck. Did you try with those numbers? I believe it's safer against aggro even game 1. Game 2 with all those Send to Sleep and Adverse Conditions, you haven't managed to win even some?

Snow_Lynx, Absolutely great budget deck! +1 and thanks for all the help along the way!

I'm just getting back into magic and this was a perfect build guide for me to not blow all my $$$ on just 1 deck. However when I was play testing it online, I really wanted to put in 1 more Thing in the Ice  ^Flip. Now i know it's not really possible to keep it under $40 with 4x Thing in the Ice  ^Flip. So budget slightly aside, I wanna add 1x more Thing in the Ice  ^Flip and I was also thinking 1-2x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets Have you run with 4x Thing in the Ice  ^Flip or play tested with Jace, Unraveler of Secrets ? I know earlier in the build you said Jace could see some playing time. What 3 cards would you replace in the main deck if you were to add 1 more Thing in the Ice  ^Flip and 1-2x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets ?

      -Thanks again

LeopardBluff, if it was me, I would put 2 Jace and take out 2 Epiphany at the Drownyard.

If I were to include a 4th Thing in the Ice  ^Flip, I would take out 1 Rise from the Tides

I saw your other comment too Snow_lynx ; )

I think you may be right that 4x Thing in the Ice  ^Flip with 2x Jace, Unraveler of Secrets may throw off the synergy of the deck. I'm going to test out the 2x Jaces first before I throw in another TITI. As far as the 2 drop Jace, Vryn's Prodigy  ^Flip, it's just way too pricey for what makes this deck great I think.

LeopardBluff, haha, I thought you wanted a short answer rather than a long one.

On second thought, however, I think perhaps taking out the 2 Drowner of Hope for 2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets makes more sense from a mana-cost point of view. After all, it's horrible when you get a lot of cost 5-6 cards early game. Plus Jace is also a kind of win-con, just a bit worse than Drowner of Hope (since Jace dies easily to aggro and to some removal cards, while Drowner/tokens will normally survive through at least 2 cards, generating card advantage.

Take one of each Drowner of Hope and Epiphany at the Drownyard, that might be better to make room for the 2 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets

MrZessty, LeopardBluff, UmmmmmmLOL

I would not put Jace, Unraveler of Secrets in this deck at all, however. He feels slow since we cast at sorcery speed, is vulnerable to Duress and Transgress the Mind, doesnt help us against aggro at all and doesnt agree with the sorcery/instant mechanic. Which is why I mentioned Jace, Telepath Unbound  ^Flip, since he can be played turn 2, helps with draws / building our graveyard and the planeswalker can play counters/draw from the graveyard, which also sinergize with Thing in the Ice  ^Flip, taking off counters.

I do agree, though, that he's too expensive, specially considering that he's NOT better than Thing in the Ice  ^Flip. If we must choose one, it's DEFINITELY TITI. And having both will make our deck flow with less sinergy, since I will never take a Drowner of Hope for it (believe me, that guy saves games all by itself).

So, in short, the idea of raising Thing in the Ice  ^Flip to 4 is actually great if you can afford it. It's a great turn 2 move, and can even see play at turns 6+. I would probably take out a Rise from the Tides for it, since it really bothers me when I get Rise from the Tides on my starting hand on the few next turns. Many games I won without even relying on the zombies anyways. Awoken Horror  ^Flip and Drowner of Hope can easily finish the job in many games, with the counter/tap support.

Snow_Lynx Sou do Rio Grande do Sul cara, comecei a jogar a muito pouco tempo, entao vai levar algum tempo at eu aparecer no competitivo :(

Eu sempre joguei com decks aggro que continham elementos de controle que eu usava especificamente pra agressao, normalmente impedindo que o adversrio me alcancasse em tempo com um board ja construido.

Sempre achei muito interessante a ideia de conseguir anular a carta de um adversrio com uma minha.

O efeito acaba por ser simetrico pras duas partes em termos de vantagem de carta, mas o adversrio utiliza mana o que diminui a probabilidade e as possibilidades de ele usar algo durante seu turno.

Sem falar que se ele nao tiver como repor essas cartas em um tempo adequado, vai ficar pra tras rapidinho dependendo do que conseguir no topo do deck.

Estou a algum tempo procurando um deck de controle budget e esse seu foi definitivamente o melhor que eu j vi aqui no TappedOut.

Ms que vem vou comprar minha terceira TITI e testar na minha LGS

Snow_Lynx i have won some against aggro with that side but the deck still struggled to do so.

MrZessty, no one can win all matches. This deck is better against Control, then Midrange, and then aggro. There's no deck that can win against every other kind. Mine is no different. Having a 40% chance is already pretty good.

Skaab Goliath as an alternative to one or both of the drowners? It sucks if you have to exile any spells, but if the zombies aren't presenting the right moment, then this guy might do a better job of winning you the game than a Drowner of Hope anyways.

UmmmmmmLOL, wrong!! Have you ever played with Drowner of Hope?

Let me explain why he's SO GOOD.

(1) 3 creatures instead of 1. What that means - they can't just 1-card-removal on him. Plus they are all immune to Ultimate Price, a common and cheap removal. They also don't all die to a Languish. That means my opponent MUST waste 2 or 3 cards to kill each of my 3 creatures. That means CARD advantage. Plus they have to pass my counters!

(2) My 2 eldrazi spawns can give me 2 mana. That means I can play more spells, can even play Rise from the Tides turn 7 and STILL have 3 mana for a counter left behind!

(3) 3 blocking creatures against fast aggro.

(4) I can sacrifice 1 eldrazi to tap manlands for 2 turns, allowing me to attack for 7+6+5 damage and denying their strongest creature to be able to block or attack.

(5) Can attack for 7 each turns, instead of 6, if they don't have creatures on board, which is common with all my bounce/grip/counter unless pure aggro.

Trust me, I've won more matches with Drowner than with zombies last FNM. It's a beast.

Plus, that Skaab Goliath REQUIRES me to sacrifice 2 CREATURE cards from my graveyard. I have almost no creatures!

my mistake, I thought you only had to exile any card from the graveyard, not specifically creatures. I tried the deck out on Tuesday and I struggled to find the right rhythm. Will keep playing it as is, and let you know if I think of any other changes.