I'd love to continue discussion on this deck, so absolutely feel free to ask/suggest anything, but I would also like to take a moment to thank everyone who has helped me with this build. I might fail in listing all of your names, but without your suggestions I might have never thought to use the following cards both currently and previously in my 75:
Copperhorn Scout - I knew this card had some great and interesting interactions with other elves, but I feel bad for nay-saying her inclusion for so long. My eyes are now open. - MagnaLynx21, McChisel, others
Naturalize - I was relying on Acidic Slime and Karn Liberated for my non-creature permanent smashing, but I underestimated how badly I'd need cheap, instant removal. Naturalize is often preferable to trying to power an ooze out with a 6-mana Green Sun's Zenith, especially when GSZs have so many other uses. - ItsAshcanPete, others
Karn Liberated - Karn is my hero. Karn, Silver Golem was the first legendary creature I ever owned, so he deserved to be in the deck for old time's sake anyway. - cartwheelnurd, OrgasmAndTea, nostalgia
Other sources of inspiration: various Glissa Rock deck skeletons (which are all vastly different but got my brain thinking), Todd Anderson's SCG Open Richmond Mono-Green Aggro (some recent inspiration, mostly for sideboard ideas), Solomon's Elvs Accelerati (Mono-Green), and zandl's standard-elves-believe-it (if I had known the latter existed, it would have saved me a little work, haha).
Dozens of other suggestions have been made, including such things as Genesis Wave, Primeval Titan, Beast Within, etc., and I am always switching things out and playtesting. So if you think this deck is lacking some amazing card, please let me know! This is why I like this site so much!
Interesting design, with a lot of range that should hold you out for most of the game. However, I think maybe Coperhorn Scout should find a place in the sideboard for match ups when the Arches ability doesn't connect. The only other suggestion I could make is maybe one Overrun, just for those times where the big boys can end a game on a stale board when your opponent least expects it, or of course to get a Gideon or a Liliana out of the way. Asides from that, pretty strong looking build.
January 6, 2012 6:22 a.m.
Good call on Copperhorn Scout . I welcome her to the sideboard.
I'm throwing Overrun on the Maybeboard for now. I do plan on including it, but I want to use tonight's FNM to see which cards aren't carrying their weight, so I know what to switch out for it. Thanks for the suggestions!
January 6, 2012 11:46 a.m.
I really like this, but a suggestion would be to take out primeval titan, as you won't really need the land at that point. If you dont want to you can add some more of Ezuri, who is a lot like overrun if that's what you want. A good repacement for the titan is Karn liberated, because he can take out some of the opponent's most powerful things.
January 11, 2012 9:08 p.m.
thanks for catching my mistake! I originally had the Primeval Titan in there to fetch Ghost Quarter s to combat Wolf Run decks, but that started to seem silly when I already had two maindeck Acidic Slime . I forgot to axe the titan when I removed said lands. Appreciated!
January 12, 2012 midnight
Dungrove Elder, other than that it looks awesome! +1
January 14, 2012 3:11 a.m.
Dungrove Elder is certainly a possibility, especially as a card:Green Sun's Zenith target, but I'm going to hold off on it for now. My two issues with it in this deck are that I've only got 14 Forests, and most of my ramp mana is produced by creatures with the type "Elf Druid." I lack any speedy land drop cards like Rampant Growth or Primeval Titan to ratchet the Elder up quickly, instead opting to gun straight for casting Wurmcoil Engine s and Karn Liberated .
However, it's definitely in my mental Maybeboard. Dungrove Elder]] is solid.
January 15, 2012 1:40 a.m.
Karn is basically additional, reusable removal for me, and he's easy enough to play by mid-game, with ramp. He helps in getting rid of Mirran Crusader s and Sword of Feast and Famine , which run rampant in my store's meta, as well as clearing pesky Moorland Haunt s, Kessig Wolf Run s, and Inkmoth Nexus . While these are things Acidic Slime can also do (excepting killing Mirran Crusader), Karn just gets me additional versatility, along with a panic button if things aren't going according to plan. While he might have a place in the sideboard, he's versatile enough that I can see no reason not to maindeck him.
I shouldn't HAVE to use him, but if my other win conditions aren't able to do the job, I should think having Karn is a nice option to have.
January 15, 2012 10:50 p.m.
The thing is he would probably be removed before you could ever use his panic button. It would be another two turns after you drop him that you could use his ultimate. That's if you aren't using his -3 at all, and if nobody attacks him. I think more Garruk would be more suiting (Garruk Relentless Flip Flip so you don't run into problems with drawing another Garruk, Primal Hunter while one is still on the field).
January 15, 2012 11 p.m.
Garruk Relentless Flip Flip would be more appealing to me if he could do anything against multiple creatures with flying, or things like Mirran Crusader . That, and he's kind of fragile, and thus much easier to remove than Karn. Plus, I've already got other means of tutoring and Overrun ing in GSZ and Ezuri.
Karn Liberated can remove huge threats (titans, Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite , other planeswalkers), and soak damage if I need him to (using his +4 rather than his -3 ability). It's never really my intent to have to use his ultimate, but I'm happy to threaten my opponent with it. I'd rather avoid long rounds, and I definitely don't want to be "that guy." But it is an (amusing) option!
January 15, 2012 11:11 p.m.
They get to choose the card they exile though don't they?
January 15, 2012 11:19 p.m.
The +4? Yeah. But it doesn't really matter, so long as I can -3 something the next turn, or continue to put pressure on them to come up with an answer before I run them out of cards/permanents. I really don't see any downsides to having a Karn on the field. There's always something to do.
January 15, 2012 11:28 p.m.
Also, you made a point earlier about using Garruk Relentless Flip Flip and Garruk, Primal Hunter at the same time. As they share the subtype Garruk, they couldn't both be in play at the same time, which is another reason I wasn't considering Relentless.
January 15, 2012 11:31 p.m.
Ahh, I didn't realize that worked like that. I've got nothing against Karn, I just think there's better options for this deck. Just my opinion, take it for what you will. I do like the standard elves though.
January 15, 2012 11:47 p.m.
Hey, all suggestions are appreciated! I like being able to talk my decisions out. I've only gotten to play this deck in one tournament so far, along with some casual play, so I've still got plenty of testing before I'll know for sure what my opinions on my planeswalkers are. Until then, thanks for your comments!
January 15, 2012 11:59 p.m.
umm you have black, so you could potentially swap a Liliana of the Veil in for karn, it would still work for removal, and it would help against hexproofs
January 16, 2012 9:21 p.m.
Liliana is a good option, for sure. She and Karn do similar things, attacking both cards in hand and permanents on the field. Oddly enough, because of the mana situation in this deck, 1BB and 7 are almost equally easy to cast, simply because green is more plentiful than double-black, what with all the G-producing elves running around.
I feel like it mostly comes down to personal preference. I'm personally not crazy about discarding my own cards when I'm trying to play out as many permanents as possible. Also: me and Karn go way back (I started playing during Urza block, and Karn, Silver Golem was my first legend), and I'd personally like to keep black as a splash here, but if anyone wanted to increase the amount of black in this deck, maybe add some of those handsome Grave Titan s, then Liliana would probably be the way to go.
January 16, 2012 9:32 p.m.
I do really like Karn, he's a game changer if its at a stale mate, and plus if your opponent is trying to remove him it gives you more time to get out your ramp/creatures. A card I would suggest looking at would be Genesis Wave , my friend runs it in his elf deck, and it is great, it pulls out all of your lands and permanents. It could get rid of something like a card:Green Sun's Zenith or a Go for the Throat , however thats only 6 cards, but it puts out everything else, which to me would is great for this type of deck.
January 16, 2012 11:36 p.m.
I would say though, not sure if you have this problem but you might have too many swamps? the only thing that use it are 1B to cast. also maybe Copperhorn Scout for extra ramp/pump.
January 16, 2012 11:38 p.m.
It might be better to trim a couple of swamps, but I think I've got plenty of leeway, since I have 8 elf druids and 18 lands that all produce plenty of green mana. Having 10 black mana sources just feels like nice security if I desperately need to Go for the Throat something, or pay the flashback cost of a sideboarded Sever the Bloodline (because bad cards are FUN!).
I'll keep testing how the deck runs. I may very well end up going -2 swamps, +2 forests or some zany nonbasic.
I tried a couple of Copperhorn Scout s for the deck's first FNM, and while their interaction with Elvish Archdruid , et al is definitely interesting, I usually found myself wishing I'd drawn something more independently powerful.
Genesis Wave is insanely strong, as long as it doesn't get countered (which definitely does happen, based on the times I've used it in other decks). But one can play around countermagic. I guess my biggest concern is that it's kind of a win-more card that only really explodes when I've already got an army of creatures and coffers full of mana. I can't see it doing TOO much if I'm being tightly controlled, even with plenty of lands in play.
I may try a couple of waves this week, just to see how it goes. I'm not sure what I'd take out for it, though. Two swamps? Haha, perhaps.
January 17, 2012 12:01 a.m.
I love the variety of the deck that combos very well. +1
January 18, 2012 2:05 p.m.
Lol the archer trades with flipped delver. Now I know how this deck is positive in it's W/L
January 18, 2012 4:01 p.m.
Archers are OP. Defensive one-drops ftw.
LOL spirit tokens.
January 18, 2012 4:18 p.m.
January 20, 2012 1:29 a.m.
If I end up adopting Genesis Wave into the deck, I think I'll probably definitely add the shrine as well. That seems like a fun use of excessive mana.
Going to take my current list to FNM tonight and see how it goes. I'll start testing my Maybeboard tomorrow.
January 20, 2012 7:16 a.m.
Glad to see this deck is still receiving very positive feedback!
I'm not sure if anyone else pointed this one out but another addition for the sideboard to give you the reach against the aggro decks. Pretty sure Mageblade would simply fold to a green stompy approach, as would the UW humans. Oh and that would certainly go well with my original sideboard suggestion of Copperhorn Scout! :)
January 20, 2012 7:46 a.m.
...I didn't even give my new suggestion, Bellowing Tanglewurm! Proof reading comments twice, what's that. -.-
January 20, 2012 7:48 a.m.
Actually, that's...inspired. I might even maindeck it! It doesn't even have to attack! Just play it, attack with unblockable elves. I haven't got any copies on hand, but I think I'll rectify that this weekend.
You are an okay person, you know that?
January 20, 2012 8:14 a.m.
looks pretty sexy, how do you do versus haunted humans? (blue white humans with geist and morrland haunt)
January 20, 2012 2:20 p.m.
I haven't played against haunted humans yet, but it is the deck I fear the most. My maindeck answers to the Crusader, Geist, and Haunt are all fairly expensive, but this is a ramp deck, so they shouldn't be THAT difficult to cast. I am a little worried about speed, though. I've got:
4x Wurmcoil Engine, which can block pro-green crusaders and geists, and regain the life lost from whatever punishment they've already inflicted on me.
2x Karn Liberated exiles problem permanents, is grossly expensive while doing so.
I'll just have to see for myself how this works in practice, if I encounter Haunted Humans. Either way, I'll likely post an update after tonight's FNM.
January 20, 2012 3:43 p.m.
Glad to know my rambling ideas are finding some love! :3
Good luck with tonight. :D
Oh and as for deciding your sideboard, leave it until your local meta shapes up after DKA. That's my plan ;)
January 20, 2012 4:51 p.m.
good luck tonight anxious to hear how ur fnm goes. my meta is pure u/w human and u/w illusion, globals like Black Sun's Zenith and Day of Judgment do the trick. Squeezing a couple Blacj sun's into your SB might prove useful.
January 20, 2012 5:34 p.m.
You guys, you gender non-specific guys, I frickin won my first frickin FNM, and I did it with a rogue elf ramp deck! And I only lost one game! 5-0 rounds, 10-1 games. I posted an update with the tournament breakdown above.
Having one copy of Bellowing Tanglewurm to tutor up with Green Sun's Zenith won me two games that I would not have won otherwise. I am very pleased with this card, even main deck. I'll probably throw an extra copy on the sideboard for more aggro-intensive matchups. The best thing about this: I bought a couple of Scars of Mirrodin boosters before the tournament just to fish for a copy of this card, and I actually lucked out and pulled one. Props to MagnaLynx21 for the suggestion!
Karn Liberated is very good in this deck. It's easy enough to have him in play by turn 4 or 5, and the fact that he can exile -any- permanent and that he is colorless (bwaha, Mirran Crusader, bwa. ha.) has been invaluable to my winning games. Karn saved my face two or three times.
Also: it brings happiness to my heart that I can summon friends for Thrun, the Last Troll so he's a little less lonely. He had lots of fun traipsing though the red zone with Llanowar Elves and things.
Also also: I had a lot of fun playing this deck. Me and this deck are buds now.
January 21, 2012 12:32 a.m.
Hey if you get a chance, could you plug my deck : deck:deadheads-dka-ub-reanimator-aggro Lookin for some cool tips and comments!
January 21, 2012 3:37 p.m.
I would maybe think about dropping a few forests for Birds of Paradise, especially if you're going to be running any kind of black in the mainboard.
My other suggestion is Dismember. It's a workaround for indestructible or regenerate, and it's another kill spell you can potentially cast for 1. Just a suggestion.
January 22, 2012 6:49 p.m.
I was actually worried I had too much black mana.
I haven't had any problems with black mana with the current list. Ten of my twenty-four lands can produce black mana, Glissa can be cheated out with GSZ if I don't have a swamp available, and things like Go for the Throat are usually saved until midgame or later, to take care of more threatening creatures. If I end up including more black cards (which is a possibility once Dark Ascension comes out), Birds will probably find a place somewhere in here, but it's more likely that I would just make an entirely new, non-elf deck.
As for Dismember, I'm just not sure what I would be targeting with it that GFtT, Acidic Slime, Karn, and any of my sideboard removal don't already cover. I can legend-rule enemy Thrun's to death, and Mirran Crusader and various hexproof creatures can't be dismembered anyway. Are there any standard threats I'm missing that would be worth me paying double black and/or life to get rid of?
January 22, 2012 7:02 p.m.
Army of the Damned is a hilarious Timmy card, for sure, but it's just to black mana-intensive for my comfort level. I also really dislike how none of the zombies can block the turn they come into play, unless I'm running Copperhorn Scout. Eight mana is not a problem with this deck, but considering most of the mana comes from elves, my mana pool is usually going to look like this:
January 22, 2012 7:06 p.m.
+1 for the good tourney narratives! Deck is nice too.
January 22, 2012 8:38 p.m.
This deck gets a +1 from me!
I've been play testing it a lot because I've found it incredibly well thought out and very interesting to play. Because it wasn't my creation, I have found it difficult to play it as efficiently as you do. However, I've recently replaced 2 Wurmcoil Engines with 2 Primeval Titans and put in 4 Sunpetal Grove, while slipping in a couple Gavony Township.
I've found it helpful to my play experience with the deck, and it might assist you in evolving the deck even more. I'm still less than a year into the game, however, so there are a lot of things that I could do better when playing the deck, like learning to play elves then tap for Elvish Archdruid.
I can't wait to watch as you post more game information about your deck's matchups. Good Planeswalking to you friend!
January 24, 2012 10:53 p.m.
Thank you for the input! I've gone back and forth on the idea of removing the black entirely and splashing white instead, swapping out Go for the Throat for Oblivion Ring and maybe 2x Wurmcoils for Sun Titan (to bring back all the Archdruids that like to get killed), but I wasn't even considering Primeval Titan + Gavony Township!
I kind of really love this idea! Is it basically G/b/w, or did you drop black completely out for efficiency? If you end up developing a separate deck out of this, leave me a link and I'll post it above as a variant! And definitely continue to let me know how it does!
January 24, 2012 11:25 p.m.
hey mate cracking narrative and really nice deck looks like it can simply handle everything. I think you should add one Primeval Titan cuz hes sick :-) but seriously it may be helpful to have one over one wurmcoil as if you have a situation where you can abuse having 4 million land thanks to said titan who would want that! :-) like if you had already ramped to fuck and thought lets GSZ for my titan so i can have a karn and overun next turn. basically a win more card! lol but hes so cool!
+1 after my rambling :-)
January 25, 2012 8:24 a.m.
Chancellor of the Tangle is also an option, and when he's in your opening hand, you ramp even faster. If you have two Chancellors, a forest, and an Elvish Archdruid in your opening hand, that's a first turn Elf lord! (I know that is unlikely, but still). Also, if you don't have a little ramper, (Llanowar Elves) you can Green Sun's Zenith for 1 on turn one (with Chancellor in your opening hand, of course), and plop down Llany (can really help with turn one consistency)!
+1. Always love standard elves!!]
January 25, 2012 12:41 p.m.
@maiden77 - Primeval Titan is a worthy suggestion. I'm sticking the big lunk on the sideboard, because while I cannot deny its effectiveness, it's not as removal-resistant as that lovely, excessive 4th Wurmcoil Engine, and is less effective against the Mirran Crusaders that are all over my meta.
@UniTheDino - I like Chancellor of the Tangle, but not as much for this deck. The first turn boost is nifty, but unless I include multiple copies, the boost will never be very consistent. And while it's certainly a nice big creature, it's kind of boring. I'll stash it away in my head for the next big green deck I build though!
January 25, 2012 7:01 p.m.
I really love this deck and +1, but ow can you really protect your Elvish Archdruids when your Ezuri isnt around? Wouldnt losing him be very detrimental?
January 25, 2012 11:05 p.m.
The Archdruid produces a very nice burst of speed if you can get him to stick around for a turn, which is sometimes enough to blow the other player out. BUT if you lose him, it's not really the end of the world. You can still ramp some with Llanowar Elves, or Viridian Emissary if they are fond of using sweepers. Or you can use solid blockers like Ezuri's Archers or Glissa to stall the game out until you can play lands the old fashion way.
If your opponent is using all of their mana and spells on removal, just play it out a bit more methodically and don't overcommit to the board, but make sure you've always got a threat. They'll eventually run out of hard removal, unless they're playing some kind of crazy deck with 20 varieties of Terror and no win condition. This deck can play like a midrange deck if it needs to slow down a bit. Karn Liberated actually prefers a slow game.
This is all from my experience, anyway. I'm seeing fewer heavy control decks in my meta, as everyone goes more aggro or aggro-control. Yer mileage may vary.
January 25, 2012 11:46 p.m.
Wow, that was a very methodical and well thought out answer. I didn't expect such an explanation xD, thank you though. So I might as well ask one more to gauge your opinion on this. If this deck would be turned into solely a mono green deck, what can you see happening with it's effectiveness?
January 26, 2012 12:40 a.m.
Oh yeah, and before I forget lol, where are the Naturalizes? Helps shut down Mage Blade by killing swords, ends anyone who dares play a Tempered Steel deck, kills Honor of the Pure and not to mention Oblivion Ring, and most importantly, kills the pesky curses everyone is seeing this metagame (obviously). But it's a great cheap artifact and enchantment remover so you can have your Acidic Slime destroy all of their dual lands (aim for blue!)
January 26, 2012 12:53 a.m.
I guess I view Karn Liberated and sideboard Beast Within as my Naturalizes. They aren't as cheap, mana-wise, and Karn is much slower, but they're also more versatile than Naturalize, in that they can also snipe lands, creatures, even planeswalkers. Acidic Slime I use on lands if they are having difficulty making early land drops, or if I'm staring down Moorland Haunt or Kessig Wolf Run, etc., but I'm otherwise happy to blow up a sword with it. Green has lots of answers, thankfully, and Naturalize is a very good one, so it's mostly personal preference, I think. My sideboard could probably use Creeping Corrosion for Tempered Steel, in all honestly. I may look into that.
If you went mono-green, I'd do something like:
The deck would still play very similarly, but you'd lose some of your efficient creature kill. Beast Within would do the trick for big threats, and instant speed is very nice, but you'd still be giving them a 3/3 body in the process, and with Glissa gone, you'd have fewer deathtouch blockers. You could add extra Acidic Slime, but just be careful your elf count doesn't get so low that the Elvish Archdruid is only ever making green mana for itself.
January 26, 2012 1:07 a.m.
January 26, 2012 1:11 a.m.
Just looking at this deck makes me angry lol. I would hate to play against it +1.
Check out my Zombies with a Vengeance! and tell me what you think.
January 26, 2012 6:04 p.m.
Have you had to face any control heavy decks because in my store's meta that has run rampant. If so, how have you dealt with it?
January 26, 2012 9:59 p.m.
@ItsAshcanPete I've faced one or two traditional control decks, but my opponents had some bad mana draws, so I can't really give an accurate answer to that question. But I can wildly guess!
I actually built this deck thinking more about control decks than any other archetype, just because they used to run rampant in my meta. Certain cards, like Thrun, the Last Troll , Wurmcoil Engine, Karn Liberated, and Garruk, Primal Hunter do terrible things to control decks, because they all present big threats, and they are all difficult to remove.
One issue, of course, is countermagic(Thrun still laughs at this), but the common Mana Leak is actually not all that great against this deck, just because one of the deck's key strategies is to produce lots of mana. You may have to play the biggest threats a bit more slowly against control, but if you're able to stick a Wurmcoil or planeswalker, then you put some serious pressure on them.
The other key thing is to save your own removal for their big threats. This deck has multiple ways of killing things, and the sideboard has more, so that shouldn't be much of a problem.
Or you can get lucky and kill them with elves.
Hope that helps!
January 26, 2012 10:16 p.m.
I love this deck. I've been playing elves since I started Magic, but my current standard deck isn't quite up to scratch. My old elf deck (which is now extended) had a similar line up, but ran powerful zendikar stuff like Joraga Warcaller. The next plan for that deck includes the rather despicable combination of Primordial Hydra and Increasing Savagery with elf ramp. evil laughter
I love the black splash and Karn in particular, very nice, especially reading all the above reasons you've kept him in. You like a card, keep him regardless. I'm still trying to make a Myr deck work. I desperately want to help you improve the deck, but at such a high win ratio, not sure what else to say!
A couple of suggestions crossed my mind though. The new Deadly Allure looks fun. I'm having fun just looking at the artwork... Crushing Vines seems like a nice, versatile sideboard, and I've always found a use for Witchbane Orb in my sideboard (there's a particular red mage I know who gives up when that hits the table, screaming 'Broken bullshit! Fuck wizards and fuck that card!'). It's also not always obvious that witchbane also stops cards like Tribute to Hunger from killing your otherwise untouchable troll. Melira, Sylvok Outcast is the final ingredient for a 3-card combo that withstands just about all removal.
Oh, and then there's the phyrexian cards, Surgical Extraction and Gitaxian Probe. These can go in any deck, and the loss of life isn't much worry if you have a Wurmcoil Engine at the ready. Looking at what removal your opponent has for 2 life can give you a huge tactical advantage against control. Also on the subject of screwing control, one word. Asceticism.
You say you haven't tested properly against control decks, but why not improvise and add control yourself? Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger on turn 4/5. You'd only need one with GSZ (green mages everywhere love GSZ...). He pretty much ruins Wolf Run decks. Praetor's Counsel is also nice if your creatures have been blown to bits the entire game. Final suggestion comes from my personal favourite black card, Sorin's Vengeance. Nothing has quite the same demoralising effect as a potential one shot kill card, and if you cast it just once you can scare the shit out of your opponent that you'll do it again. You could even bluff your way into a victory..."and now I play, Sorin's Vengeance!" slams Llanowar Elves onto the table. Opponent doesn't look at the card and simply runs away screaming.
January 27, 2012 4:17 a.m.
@OrgasmAndTea These are all great suggestions, and as soon as I finish typing out this comment, Melira, Sylvok Outcast and Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger are definitely going into my sideboard. Black Sun's Zenith has had a huge surge in popularity of late, and it's nice to have an advantage over other ramp decks.
For the others, I'm just going to have to see how much of an impact DKA has on the format. Crushing Vines, for example, could surpass Beast Within if the meta is right, but right now the ability to target lands is crucially important, and planeswalker targets are gravy. If RDW comes back (I haven't seen it in weeks. I kind of miss it!), Witchbane Orb will find a way into my 75 cards, and if super-heavy control decks have a renaisssance, I'd love to have Praetor's Counsel.
Sorin's Vengeance is a card I like, but it's very black intensive. I'm probably going to be playing with some heavy black post-DKA, so this may see the light of day (the dark of night?) soon. Asceticism is cool, but I wish it did more than just sit there. I'll Maybeboard it for now.
As for Surgical Extraction, I'm already using it! I LOVE Surgical Extraction! It's extremely fun to play, which MAY make me a sadist, I dunno.
Thank you for your help! I may have a high win ratio now, but nine rounds from two separate FNMs does not really make for statistically significant data. Also: I've been feeling like my sideboard is lackluster. I'm always interested in sideboard advice. Thank you very much!
FNM tonight, FNM tonight, woooo gonna get me some FNM
January 27, 2012 3:32 p.m.
Tree of Redemption enters the sideboard. The crowd roars, only to be stifled by the strangling nooses of potentially fantastic and highly situational life-gain.
January 27, 2012 3:57 p.m.
any thoughts of what you might adjust with Dark Ascension's release?
January 31, 2012 9:12 a.m.
General notice: I've added an update above to include my newest changes. Hint: I added Phyrexian Metamorph.
@kmard80 - I'm not sure what to expect out of DKA yet, as far as standard metagame changes are concerned. This Friday will be the first time the set is officially legal, and I'm sure it will take at least a couple of weeks before changes really start to happen. For now, I think I'm feeling reasonably safe, but only time will tell.
Personally, I think elves > zombies, but the possible return of full-on monoblack control? Kind of scary, to be honest.
January 31, 2012 10:23 p.m.
I've finally finished my G/W variant of this deck, and started play testing tonight. I've only played against Haunted Humans and G/R Werewolves. As of yet, the deck played no differently than it did versus Haunted Humans, but against the Werewolves, the deck certainly made an impact, and the most impressive play I made was casting Genesis Wave for 7, revealing 7 permanents(2 Primeval Titan, 1 Sun Titan, 1 Thrun, the Last Troll , 1 Llanowar Elves, 1 Copperhorn Scout, 1 Forest).
After more play testing against a wider variety of decks(and more decks from the meta, especially the ones here at my local FNM) and get a better idea of what works and what doesn't, I'll post it on here with a link to your deck as inspiration and will let you know. =D
February 1, 2012 2:51 a.m.
@Grizzly92 - I look forward to seeing it! Two titans, a Thrun, some elves, and some land is some ridiculous card advantage to come out of just one spell. I like the inclusion of Sun Titan with the elves as well, seeing as how he resurrects pretty much every elvish elven-y elf to ever come out of Elf Town.
Good luck with the playtesting! I will likewise link to yours once you've got a deck posted.
February 1, 2012 7:55 a.m.
I wasn't sure about the blue adittion but the metamorphs do fit well with the flow. +1 great deck, inspires me to work on my own green black deck.
February 1, 2012 8:44 a.m.
This is a very solid build the synergy in the deck you have here works very well in the tapped out function however I believer that you should include copperhorn scout into the side board because of her ability +1 from me Do me a favor and check out my blood rain deck on my page I personally prefer vampires over elves
February 3, 2012 12:42 a.m.
ok i'm a green guy and i'm making a black green undying deck so i know the feeling of seeing a mirran crusader coming head on with an angelic destiny.....which is were i say that four beast within is the better substitue instead of the go for the throat. they equip angelic destiny attempt to swing for 12....you respond buy blowing up the enchantment and he becomes a weenie again and they are tapped out and u should have a wurm out by then. Plus its permanent not just creatures....yes its one more mana but its every permanent, that means you just got ride of something before karn hits or you save your butt from a mirran and your main mana base is green you have eight black sources and i don't know if you ever have problems. so tell me what you think and check out my decks rwestbrook_78 tell me what you think.
February 3, 2012 2:50 a.m.
Re: Copperhorn Scout - She's in my maybeboard. I'll include her in my deck if I ever have room, but for now she's on the bench. The biggest problem with her is that she is best used when you have both Elvish Archdruid AND Ezuri out, and while this does happen from time to time, it's kind of an ideal situation. If I were runnIng even MORE elves and Ezuri was my main win condition, she'd be an auto-include. She's more of a simple convenience in this deck, rather than a necessity.
February 3, 2012 5:51 a.m.
Hey there jake - I finally got around to putting my variation of your deck up, but it won a FNM for me last week. I'm properly giving you credit here for the inspiration and seriously, thank you. http://tappedout.net/users/Cassiel/I tried a straight up mono green elf run with Ezuri as really the only win condition, needless to say after finally breaking down and spending some money on the Wurmcoils I started seeing immediate improvements. My deck is lacking a few of the expensive rares, I've only got 3x Wurmcoils, and I'm using Lead the Stampede as a ghetto card draw version of Garruk. Other than that, our decks are pretty much the same.
Anyway, with DKA out now, I had a few critiques and suggestions about our beloved elf ramp deck. To start off with, I'm going to take the deck in a more defensive direction. The one single biggest change I suggest is adding 4x Undying Evil, even at the expense of Go for the Throat. If you think about it, IMO, it just seems like protecting my own valueble creatures is a better play than taking out one of theirs, and spot removal does not work against what we hate the most, aka Geist of St. Traft + Mirran Crusader. Another silly side benefit is if they kill off Wurmcoil and we Undying Evil it - that is a late game unlikely scenario though, I just think protecting our Archdruids and Glissa is so much more important. The worst creatures we have to deal with, are dealt with by getting lots of mana and better creatures/Karn, and for that we need to keep our rampers alive long enough at least.
As long as we have Glissa on the field, they are scared shitless to actually attack us. They GftT her or Tragic Slip her? Okay, I'll leave a black untapped, oh hello Undying Evil, she doesn't die. AND, what's best about it, it allows us to cheat Black Sun Z. Where Apostle's Blessing would not. I also want to possibly include or sideboard a Spellskite or two. Once they get the hang of this, we can leave a black untapped if nothing else just to bluff Unyding Evil, it's such a strategic card for this deck I feel strongly about.
It's just, if we are allowed to ramp, the deck really hits critical mass very quickly, and Karn enters the battlefield, and/or I'm going to add 1x of Vorinclex. That's my one gripe about the deck, late game, Green Sun feels like a dead draw as I've got nothing big to fetch. If you can quickly ramp a Vorinclex/Karn/Wurmcoil, you really put twice the pressure on them.
Please get back to me and lemme know what you think, Defensive Ramping as a strategy here.
February 3, 2012 12:23 p.m.
Also, about the Undying Evils, I think it is a perfectly logical first choice to sideboard against U/B creatureless control decks, since you obviously don't need to kill their creatures, and honestly I think it's going to be game breaking. As it stands now their best chance against us if a creature like Thrun makes it into play they BSZ him down repeatedly, Phantasmal is being less played from what I'm seeing these days.
Undying Evil straight up cheats BSZ for 1 mana while they tap out to do it. Anything that makes it onto the board, they're going to have to rely on Vapor Snag/spot removal.
Defensive utility is just plain awesome and I can't wait to play it tonight. Although, I do think it's sad that 3 boxes of Dark Ascension and the only card I'm excited about using in my real competitive deck is a common really. Here's to us, the Elf underdogs~!
Also, I wanted to suggest Sylvok Replica as a sideboard to you vs Crusader. WORST CASE SCENARIO DEATH PREVENTION, straight up - They give their Crusader a Sword or Angelic Destiny. You declare chump block with Sylvok Replica, and pay the green to sac it instantly to destroy Sword/Destiny. I feel that's such a stronger play than being forced to copy their Crusader with Metamorph. If nothing else, it straight up buys us a turn to get Wurmcoil out, plus gets rid of destiny/sword. Plus, Glissa will retrieve him later so just 1 of him functions as multiple artifact/enchantment removal.
Sorry to wall you here, but one final suggestion, I feel really feel Thrun is dead weight in the mainboard. Really the only thing he brings to the table in mainboard, not vs control/counter decks, he's a 4/4 that can regen himself and is hexproof. We can chump block with Llanowar Elves all day with Ezuri for 1G if we have to. Not a strong enough reason for him to be in IMO, sure he's great vs counterspell, but that's about it.
As an alternative, this might be a crazy suggestion, but I'm really wanting a way to make it work: but if we're running 4x Metamorph and Spellskite, why not try Ezuri's Brigade? That gives us an actual green bomb creature to Green Sun later on, and 4 for 8/8 trample is no joke. Plus he has all the built in side benefits for being on team elf. Maybe in the next block we'll get some more artifacts worth running, but I could see Brigade being a very deadly, stronger, cheaper Primeval Titan.
February 3, 2012 1:07 p.m.
@Cassiel - Lots to break down here. I'll do my best to address/consider each of your points. First, I'll cover the suggestions I think are totally viable and even preferable, depending on playstyle, and then I'll jump into the big Go for the Throat vs Undying Evil question.
Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger has been mentioned before, up above, and I personally think he's a swell guy. You are perfectly right that the deck could use a late game GSZ target, and he certainly has an impact befitting a 9G tutor. I say go for it. The only reason I'm not using him is because I've yet to buy a copy. Perhaps it's time I did so!
Sylvok Replica is a totally worthy sideboard choice. I'd personally rather use Tribute to Hunger when I know someone is running Crusaders and Saints, but that has its weaknesses as well, for sure. I think this choice mostly comes down to preference. Neither one can completely shut down a Mage Blade or Haunted Humans deck, but they do both help.
Spellskite is an interesting option, and definitely plays to your defensive style. It's not really my thing, but I definitely recognize its playability.
Ezuri's Brigade seems like another instance of playstyle preference to me. It's an elf and a half, to be sure, but the metalcraft seems a bit demanding. It would definitely fit in with a Glissa Metalcraft deck of some sort, along with Carapace Forger, but inclusion here is obviously up to you.
Thrun, the Last Troll is always handy to me, but your mileage may vary. Every other deck in my meta has access to Mana Leak, and even those that don't are never thrilled to have an extremely persistent 4/4 blocker/attacker in their path. He's just a good, solid creature, and a good 3-drop when I draw my first turn Llanowar Elves but not my second turn Elvish Archdruid. Against removal-heavy control decks, he's a constant stream of 4-damage hits, and against aggro he's a brick wall that hits back. Thrun and I are pals.
February 3, 2012 3:46 p.m.
These are the scary creatures I saw only two weeks ago, in one tournament setting, that threatened to eat my face:
And here are the scary creatures I'm looking forward to have eating my face in the near future:
The card that has stopped, and will continue to stop, all of the above is Go for the Throat. Karn can do it, but he is 7 mana, the removal is sorcery speed, and he has to take breaks to exile cards in hand before he exiles his second permanent. Instant kill is just so, so sexy.
If you're playing a deck that doesn't have at least one worrisome creature, then you shouldn't be losing anyway, and if you are (because of some combo, weenie swarm, etc.), then that's when you sideboard. But I'd feel naked without a kill spell in my main deck, when such a spell is so cheap to cast and efficient in its effect.
Undying Evil's effect is nifty though. I'm personally not that troubled if the opponent is burning removal on an Elvish Archdruid, because that's mostly a tempo play, and it gives them one less thing to throw at Wurmcoil Engine, etc. But I can understand wanting to keep your druids around. The druids really tie the deck together, after all.
I think Undying Evil would make a great sideboard card, but keep in mind it does compete with Autumn's Veil, which can protect your creatures from U/B removal like Vapor Snag (which is VERY common in my meta) and kill spells, but is also capable of shielding you from countermagic so you can cast your big stuff. Undying Evil is more appropriate against red decks or combat-heavy strategies, though, so I guess it depends on who you're playing.
If you're playing your deck as-is in FNM tonight, let me know how the Undying Evil works for you. See if you're ever in a situation where you'd prefer removal, and I'll do the same for the times in which I'd prefer undying. Maybe we can come to some consensus on the subject.
Thanks for the feedback! This has given me something to do this afternoon, haha.
February 3, 2012 3:56 p.m.
New FNM report is up, as well as a massive update covering the switch from a black splash to a white one. I've reset the discussion to make room for comments on the new direction.
As always, any and all suggestions are welcome, and I am happy to talk through whatever you've got!
February 5, 2012 12:15 a.m.
Hey, Great build! I've been testing my U/W aggro build against this and it's been a pretty good match up! I love how your cards all sinergize together. Anyways, my only suggestion would be to add a few more answers, Beast Within is a personal favorite
February 5, 2012 12:14 p.m.
Hmm, I'm not sure where I'd fit Beast Within. The 3x Oblivion Ring, 2x Acidic Slime, and 1x Karn Liberated already cover a wide swath of permanent types, and I don't want to clog my hand so much that I can't play creatures when I need them.
Any suggestions on what to take out? I did have a fourth Oblivion Ring originally, but replaced it with Karn for his late game usefulness. Maybe I should put it back on the sideboard.
February 5, 2012 12:41 p.m.
Hey, I would take out all three Fogs from your sideboard and replace 1 with an O-ring and the other two with Beast Within . As for your mainboard, I would take wurmcoil and Oblivion Ring down to 2 and add in 2 Beast Within . Wurmcoil Engine is fantastic however at 3 it's a little heavy. You need a few more early game answers. On a different, unrelated note, I would take out Karn and replace him with a third garruk.
Great build, I personally love elves and am extremely happy to see them being playable in the current meta.
February 5, 2012 12:48 p.m.
I did have 4x Wurmcoil Engine, haha. I like the consistency of being able to play them on turn 3 or 4. Four copies WAS a bit too heavy though, so now I'm at 3. I'm apprehensive about going lower than that, since I can't tutor them up with Green Sun's Zenith like I can with my elves, oozes, trolls, and titans. They're one of my principle win conditions, are difficult to remove, kill opposing titans, and keep me alive against RDW and Mirran Crusaders, so, ya know.
Fog is actually a similar story. Goblin(!) decks (#@%! GOBLINS! Seriously!) and Mirran Crusaders are the two things that have rocked my face off in the past couple of weeks. I frakking relish the idea of Fogging them. I'll probably replace them with better removal after next week though. I just need to get the hate out of my system first. I also have some concerns about armies of spirit tokens. Fog and Ratchet Bomb seem preferable to single target removal.
Beast Within is a very good card, particularly in mono-green. The 3/3 beast token doesn't usually even matter, but sometimes, sometimes it does. O-ring feels safer, even if it is only sorcery-speed. I'll do some playing around and see. So much also depends on where the meta is going to go, now that DKA is circulating.
February 5, 2012 1:06 p.m.
I just won in a three-player chaos against two heavy control decks. The game took an hour, and the aggro deck actually won.
Opponent 1 (decent fellow) was playing a pretty standard U/W control, with Gideon Jura, Mana Leaks, Forbidden Alchemy, Snapcaster Mages, Day of Judgments, Oblivion Rings, that sort of thing. He kept a fairly low profile, countering and sweeping when the game state called for it, and generally kept the most threatening cards off the table. He had an Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite, but Opponent 2 took her out pretty quickly.
Opponent 2 (dramatic reactionary) had a much scarier deck, running Wurmcoil Engines, Unburial Rites, Havengul Liches, countermagic, and three very annoying copies of Sorin, Lord of Innistrad. Oh, and Drogskol Reaver. He was able to generate a -frak- ton of life, but I was so incessant in my attacking that he never got over 20.
Over the course of the game, I played several elves, one early Thrun, the Last Troll , one Primeval Titan, one Wurmcoil Engine, two Garruk, Primal Hunter, one Karn Liberated, two Oblivion Rings, and fourteen lands. By the end of game, my only permanents were an 8/8 Thrun (thanks to Gavony Township), two 4/4 wurm tokens, and lands. I ended the game at 36 life. Thrun did most of the work.
I like this deck. The white splash suits it.
February 5, 2012 6:39 p.m.
Hmm. Looks familiar. Even some of the cards. deck:standard-elves-believe-it
February 5, 2012 9:27 p.m.
@zandl Elves in standard are good stuff, I have a ton of fun playing them. I like your deck as well, though I wish standard had a larger selection of elves available so there wasn't so much overlap. Then again, I hadn't even considered using Elder of Laurels! I can imagine him coming in handy for sure.
As T/O Green Master, did you have any decks which stuck out as being problematic for you while you were playing standard elves? I've been playing as much as I can with this thing, for the past month or so, but I still feel like I'm only scratching the surface of standard archetypes so far. Can't say I'm complaining about a varied format, I'm just always worried I'm overlooking something.
February 5, 2012 9:45 p.m.
Had problems against mono-Red. It's just a bad match-up. Gutter Grime helped stop a lot of the hate, but it was a turn-3 play minimum. By then, my Elves are already getting roasted.
February 5, 2012 11:11 p.m.
Yeah, I got roflstomped by some goblins recently. It wasn't a proud moment. Losing all of the ramp to burn is painful. I feel like I can usually stabilize with a sweeper resistant Thrun or Wurmcoil by the time Day of Judgment is online, but an early elf-killing Slagstorm ruins my day.
February 5, 2012 11:20 p.m.
Well what u got here is a fast paced bad to the bone standard elf deck...+1... now, what u need to realize is that the problem is that u just need more then 20 life...RDW and the like get thereby thinking about 20...what i suggest is adding +1 primeval titan -1 wurmcoil...btw this is to grab...drum roll...da dam...glimmerpost...i know i know...heck just ask zandi...this works a lot....oh and switching the other garruk too will be a great answer...dont get me wrong primal hunter is the bomb but i would run 2x rentless main n primal hunter in the 2nd match depending on the match up
February 6, 2012 12:09 a.m.
As for the choice of Garruk, I prefer Garruk, Primal Hunter more for his -3 card drawing ability, as there are few things more frustrating than having tons of mana and no spells to spend it on. If I drop the Hunter after a Wurmcoil Engine or Primeval Titan, he basically restocks most of my hand for me.
February 6, 2012 12:17 a.m.
very true about the primal hunter in that respect...and very powerful play indeed...i was just thinking about removal for green and searching out another bomb after a flip. wurm coil is where it's at though...i just was trying to think how to help, and life gain is RDW worst enemy...i'll think on this a little and get back to you
February 6, 2012 12:21 a.m.
you could drop/side in 1 green sun's zenith and 1 elvish archdruid for 2 gnaw to the bone or (can't believe i'm suggesting this)2 brindle boar.
February 6, 2012 12:30 a.m.
Ehhh, I wouldn't run Glimmerpost in Elves. Getting those first two Green sources is really crucial. But then ramping to Primeval Titan involves using your creatures. If your mana dorks die, you'll be slowed down too much to even get out Primeval. I'm not sure the best way to go about fighting mono-R, but Thrun, the Last Troll is a fantastic start. Red can do anything to him, aside from double-Whipflare/Slagstorm while you don't have the mana to regenerate him.
February 6, 2012 12:32 a.m.
i like what your saying here zandl...great points which is why i would probably lean toward gnaw to the bone as a two of...mass removal is gonna be at an all time high in the meta with all the tokens running rampant...might as well gain life...twice...lol
February 6, 2012 12:36 a.m.
Interesting to see this deck is still developing even further into such creative realms. Now that I see you've moved into G-W tertiary, I think I can once again provide some helpful input ;D
Looking at your meta, the path of white could give you options like Faith's Shield, or Aposite's Blessing, as a lot of the creatures would become targets quite quickly for removal. That being said, Ranger's Guile could be an interesting option there as well, especially for those last few points of damage when your forced into a race situation.
I also see Sun Titan in the maybe board. Personally I don't think he would shine to brightly (flavour text irony!) here, I mean a lot of the time his only relevant target would be the Archdurid, however by the time you have hit the six drops, his work should have been done. I can see the idea, but a little risky.
February 6, 2012 11:12 a.m.
We are agreed about Sun Titan. I put him in the maybeboard in case anyone brought him up, and also because I did play test the card a little. It would be cool to bring things like Ezuri, archdruids, or Oblivion Rings back from the dead, but the biggest turn off for me is the double white casting cost. If this were a different green-white deck, I'd be including him with absolutely zero hesitation. In here, however, I prefer his green and artifact siblings.
As for removal protection, I'm just going to have to see what the new meta is like before I think of including things like Ranger's Guile. These are definite sideboard considerations though, for sure.
Thanks again for the suggestions! I'm getting increasingly comfortable with the way this deck plays.
February 6, 2012 12:03 p.m.
food for thought, -1 Green Sun and -1 Wurmcoil Engine or Forest +2 beast within?
On a different note, besides Garruk, you don't have any other card draw...i don't know if you've had that issue where it's too slow. I mean, with all of the mana excel perhaps a genesis wave?
February 7, 2012 1:03 a.m.
You know, I do kind of want to include 1x Genesis Wave, just to have the option every now and then.
Going to sleep on it, I think.
February 7, 2012 1:07 a.m.
Oh my planeswalkers, the DKA meta, it makes no sense! Goblins, mono-blue bounce, werewolves, curse decks! Where are these things coming from, where are they going, and why are they here?
I am afraid to send my spells into such a wilderness, even IF they're holding their own.
February 11, 2012 10:44 p.m.
The current deck iteration is actually the first time the list has contained 20 elves, so this is actually the first time the deck has -technically- been an elf tribal deck, according to the arbitrary rules of the probably outdated Tribal Wars casual format. This is definitely an elf deck now.
February 13, 2012 1:37 a.m.
I've seen you're considering Genesis Wave... to be honest I think this is a 'win more' kind of card. You'd need to cast with at least 6 mana to make sure you don't mill the likes of Ezuri etc, and if you wanna be extra safe at least 9 so that you don't bin Wurmcoil Engine. With that amount of mana, you should be winning already, and what else can you get for that amount of mana? Hey, wait a minute... where the heck is Karn Liberated?
February 13, 2012 9:17 a.m.
We are totally agreed on Genesis Wave. I just haven't bothered to remove it from the maybe board. Lure, etc. seems fun, and it's probably something I'll end up doing for laughs and to catch people off guard.
I'm trying the list without Karn Liberated for a bit, just to see how things go. If I miss him, I'll probably go -1 Glissa to put him back in.