Has anybody thought of using food chain to make infinite mana with Derevi? The way it works 1) Play food chain 2) Play Derevi 3) Exile Derevi then play for alternative casting cost. The net gain from this is one untapped permanent. So you can continually get, at minimum, one mana, as well as tapping down your opponents board. This can be done at instant speed!

@Cuickbrownfox1 so i have the rules here for you ;)

So if I am not mistaken it is impossible to use the Food Chain 's mana for Derevi since you are using an ability and not casting or playing a creature spell. To make This work one would need a third piece that could generate Mana like Eternal Scourge or Misthollow Griffin and then proceeding to use Derevi's ability to create an arbitrarily large amount of taps and untaps...

I'm not a huge fan Of three to four card combo's (Even if one is one is in the command zone you still lack outlets) outside of scepter combo's as they just outright synergize with basic ramp cards like sol ring and mana crypt, etc etc... But I'm very positive you can find people that have tried to abuse her this way on tapped out... The thing is though she doesn't compare in speed to real food chain decks unless something in Bant colors is printed that could break that.

The way Food Chain works is you exile Derevi, producing 4. Now note that Derevi's ability puts her onto the battlefield. When Derevi enters she gets to untap something. So you exile Derevi using Food Chain producing for, then re-play using her ability. So you just exiled and re-played for free. But remember you also get to untap a permanent using Derevi's ability, therefore you actually net a one mana profit. Therefore infinite mana. Exiling Derevi allows you to put her into the command zone, therefore allowing you to use her abilities.

Hold on never mind I am a fool. Just realized how Food Chain actually works. Thanks Kiyomei

NP! Glad I was of help, I wish it was that easy as well but sadly it doesn't work that way as you can't use the mana for abilities even though they are for creatures :'(.

As I said if you wanted the Infinite mana you'de have to use the scourge or Griffin mentioned earlier and then one could start using Derevi for untaps and taps but it's so much stuff to work around it becomes redundant.

There are also possibilities with Stonybrook Schoolmaster and Intruder Alarm + Azami, Lady of Scrolls or Drowner of Secrets But then you would be looking at kinda a lower power Wizard build.

Hello again, @Kiyomei! I've had the chance to play a bit more with the deck and have a couple of questions regarding card choices...

Any reason why you don't play Crop Rotation ? I know Weathered Wayfarer does something similar but I feel like the "instant" thing on Crop Rotation should be a good reason to use it and get that Nykthos or Cradle.

Same question for Swords to Plowshares and Nature's Claim . Have you found that you have such a good lock most of the games where your oppponents don't play anything that you don't have to worry about removal?

I run a list that's pretty similar to yours but now I have to find something to cut in order to play Lavinia (she is amazing!) and noticed you don't run any of those three and was wondering why, anyway, thanks in advance!

Hi , @pato_mtg . Thank you for your Question!

• Crop Rotation

So the reason I do not run Crop Rotation right now is that I don't feel it is truly 100 % necessary as a must have mainboard card just for its one-time use... When used Solely for explosiveness that ultimately could still get you nowhere while it doesn't advance our lock in any way nor does it provide us with a turn 2 Derevi just seems Redundant to me... It Could also end up being a very very dead draw at some points in the game for just a "single-use-1-land-fetch" compared to Weathered Wayfarer in our longer grindy games which this deck aims for anyway or after the occasional Mass land destruction occurs ( Ravages of War ) :'( ...

But then again I've had success with it as well before by gaining quick access to Gaea's Cradle with some dudes out and a Yisan, the Wanderer Bard in play or finding me Forsaken City to fuel my Stasis -Lock... While it can also give you card draw trough Horizon Canopy or soft counter a Wasteland / Strip Mine type effect finding you a replacement... I mean there is nothing wrong with running it and sure has some uses... It's an excellent card to be sure. but my Problem with it has always been the sheer disadvantage of losing card + Land Advantage and the possibility to have it be countered instead. losing all your tempo for just explosiveness is not my playstyle as I'd rather look at plays to keep my opponents from winning at all!

• Swords to Plowshares :

I am pretty aware of most Combo creatures and threats for us that are hard to deal with. But just one effect like this doesn't feel right and Chances (%) are so slim of you having this at your disposal and it being castable as well... I do run effective removal that is also a little more grindy in the form of Ulvenwald Tracker ... I've become a huge fan of this card as you can force Derevi or other creatures heck even Dorks to smash into a Hermit Druid for example... Most of these combo creatures are very low toughness. Or the ability to keep removing Dorks and such is also very effective.

As a creature heavy deck, most combo decks won't get through to you that easily by aggro either or go for aggro at all anyway as that is mostly not their go to win condition... I mean we can eat Tymna the Weaver or Najeela, the Blade-Blossom all day unless you're facing a lot of reanimator or Toolbox threats like Yisan that you need to deal with at instant speed... Yeah, then I'd side it in too!

If you could actually share or talk about the number of times this saved you from specific things that would definitely be interesting to take in consideration for other people looking for flex slots, or talk about the cards that force you to run this?!

• Nature's Claim :

With a deck so packed with hate towards artifacts and enchantments, I feel this only really becomes truly necessary over something like Aura Shards if an opponent managed to slip through your Stax and resolve a crucial combo piece which surely happens from time to time... Especially after the Aetherflux Reservoir and Paradox Engine / Iso-reversal prints... It could fit in the deck instead of Aura Shards easily. The Only reason I haven't had to do so yet is because of grindy cards that allow me to take piece by piece...

Sure I've died to Aetherflux Reservoir while having Stony Silence + Null Rod in play and losing both with a bunch of other Stax in play... But I mean Nature's Claim would then still need to be just that right card at that right moment with such a low chance (%) being the card you draw or get access to every game for just its single use...

Hope that was of help and explained my thought process behind not running them in the current iteration for the time being. (Subject to Change according to meta or personal needs anyway and all of them are in my Sideboard explanation in the Primer!)

(Ya win some ya lose some :'( , But consistently wise I prefer the Grindy setup that aims to remain effective over the one time uses.)

Thanks so much for the detailed explanation!

All of them make a lot of sense when reading your thoughts on it. I think I am a bit biased since last week I played against a friend who managed to Reanimate a turn 2 Sheoldred, Whispering One and it definitely felt like a losing battle most of the game until I top decked the Swords to Plowshares but that was just lucky on my part and not something I can rely on since I don't even have any method of tutoring it. And, as you said, you win some, you lose some.

That also showed me how important Containment Priest is and added it to my list, I wasn't previously running it because of Birthing Pod , Chord of Calling , etc., but now I think it is really worth its slot.

Thanks again!

@pato_mtg, I've actually been thinking about replacing Aura Shards for a while now because of these pesky artifacts... And going over your question, again and again, has changed my mind about it...

Scenarios, where it could have been way more useful than my enchantment, is plentiful as far as I can recall! also, the only way to stop them with Aura Shards would be creatures with flash which also has very low odds to pull of anyway and we already have a fair bit of hate towards artifacts so it could actually act as a backup you can keep up if you have a Null Rod out and people are looking for an end step removal to try and go for a win on their turn regardless of how Staxy your board is with Artifact combos mentioned in the previous post.

Although for the other two, I'm still not 100% convinced even though Reanimator occasionally screw you over with a turn 1 or 2 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur or any of the commonly used targets like Sheoldred... we do still have a re-castable untapping/tapping bird at our disposal that can still prolong the game to a point where those beasts won't easily beat you down anyway. And it will eventually require other people to respond too if it doesn't snowball to far out of hand. I feel like running Counter spells like Flusterstorm , Spell Pierce And similar cards like this for these early reanimator scenario's is something I'd prefer as they could also prevent board wipes that slip through at other points in the game! And imagine a pod where 2-3 of your opponents manage to put a reanimated beast on the table... Your singular swords won't save you and you just move on I guess :'(...

Or yea to flash in Containment Priest only for these kinds of scenarios :)! Heck, I'd even run more grave-hate before I'd consider swords if Reanimator was a problem as you have so many choices...

Ground Seal , Grafdigger's Cage , Rest in Peace , Silent Gravestone , etc, etc...

(It will be a pain to see Aura Shards go as I've had so much success with it removing every single Ramp artifact and later on crucial pieces they needed a turn cycle for to go off with :'(... but the day has come to accept that CEDH loves its Paradoxfluxervoirscepter or chain veil combos too much and storm is everywhere xD)

thanks for all the info, I'll take everything into account and of course, play more, to see what do I need for my meta. I think you are right,a low cost counterspell will be more beneficial for that early game interaction.

Thanks again and I look forward to more of your updates!

Awesome deck! Just finished sleeving up a budget version of it! So much fun to play!

Question: what do you think is the optimal time to play Root Maze ? Suppose you have Root maze and Fyndhorn Elves in hand. Would you prioritize the elves on turn 1 to (maybe) get ahead of opponents or would you slam it on turn one to slow down everyone?

Also have you thought of Academy Ruins as late game recursion? I'm hesitant to fill a slot with Sun Titan or Eternal Witness but a colorless land seems okay with a flexible mana base.

Hi, justindomingue

I'm glad you are enjoying the deck! So Root Maze or Fyndhorn Elves is a choice you regularly have to make and both are interchangeable with other Mana Hate or Mana producing cards... Generally depends on your turn order as going last will put you behind the most with Root Maze while opponents have already played lands or Artifacts, But going first will slow down Fetching and people that try to go for early explosiveness so let me explain my thoughts.

This all just comes down to what decks your opponents are on. If you are aware or even slightly feel like Generic-person or Generic-Deck wants to race you. You slam down the maze (Not if you're last). this mostly only applies to hulk decks or a few fast combo decks out there as most of them really only go live turn 3... While Hulk can occasionally go live turn 2 sure but that won't always happen either as there are still other people that could be holding answers (This also applies to Sphere/Orb effects as they only go live turn 2 to 3 really depending on your meta! But getting them out turn 2/3 can be crucial!)...

So with that said going for The Elf on your first turn is never really a mistake in most matchups... Because getting Derevi out on turn two means you can simply follow up by untapping a mana source and adding a Hate piece, in this case, the Root Maze .

About Academy Ruins , So this deck has a really low land count, to begin with, and not providing you with any colors Academy ruins is just not justifiable as it will hurt its consistency. If I had to make the choice the range or targets for both Sun Titan and Eternal Witness are far better... (and on a side note Sun titan can keep a Stasis alive and smash people hard!)

I understand in many scenarios you will lose Artifacts along the way but this card alone won't bring you back in the game and is very slow if you are getting wiped of Artifacts or focused, I am pretty satisfied with the land base except that I'm missing Horizon Canopy but I refuse to get me a Future sight or the ugly new one :'( (Soon I'll order the expedition).

Why haven't i seen Seedborn Muse in the most upvoted Derevi decks in this site? Sounds like it would be amazing, plus it being 5cmc gives you a tutor for Yisan's fifth counter, which most derevi decks seem to lack

@Kiyomei, hello, it's me again! Hope you don't mind me asking questions so often, it's just that the more I play the deck the more I find things I don't really know how to stop so I decided to ask the expert! haha

My main question is what do you against fast "weenie" decks? I'm mainly thinking of stuff like Edric, Spymaster of Trest and even at times, Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive , where they just dump their hands super fast and when I manage to start playing stax effects they are kind of far ahead and don't really care about my effects...

I think Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite should be the correct answer here but since she is so expensive to cast, by the time I manage to play her it might be too late, anyway, just wondering what your thoughts are against these kind of strategies.

@BattousaiYngwie My list still uses Muse for the 5cmc Pod effect, but most competitive Derevi lists try to race out the 4cmc creatures for the win. Also, being a proactive taxing deck, we play few answers that play reactively at instant speed.

@BattousaiYngwie

I wouldn't recommend Seedborn Muse "(Win-More-card)" in this deck as it is too slow and doesn't do anything for this deck... All it really does is make your symmetrical hate pieces even more asymmetrical while it takes up a slot for a redundant way of playing Derevi Because she can create that effect by herself fairly easily over the course of very few turns while keeping people locked out... And that at a borderline HIGH CMC... It doesn't stop anything and doesn't synergize well with a deck that doesn't have much instant speed interaction apart from Yisan, the Wanderer Bard ... (Also if you get to your 5TH verse you are most likely already winning and just going "Win-more" with Seedborn Muse ...)

Seedborn Muse will forever live in Prophet of Kruphix ’s shadow though.. Seedborn Muse is a card that I feel is on the cusp between Casual and Okayish/good but not broken...

Seedborn Muse works great in decks that can take advantage of instant speed spells. Even mono-green decks have options like Yeva, Nature's Herald or Yisan, the Wanderer Bard want to do things on each opponent’s turn because their decks are built around it.. It would make more sense if your list was a bit more control heavy but it doesn't have a home here!

@pato_mtg

Hey there mate, if your meta has a lot of Edric, Spymaster of Trest / Tetsuko Umezawa, Fugitive / Najeela, the Blade-Blossom / Krenko, Mob Boss token type decks or "Weenies" that just want to just slam you down with low beaters you might want to look at a bit more casual hate... Although our Hatebears have nice bodies that can deal with low power beaters fairly well like take for example Runic Armasaur is an excellent blocker but if they manage to get out of hand and snowball into a lot of tokens because other people are open, Cyclonic Rift is your go-to MVP!

( Meekstone is a bit more targeted to a casual meta but it might work sometimes and so could Reverence ... you just gotta tune your Derevi to your meta and perhaps my "sideboard could help you find a few cute cards to your liking!!)

京 An illusion? (SideBoard) 京

Commander / EDH* Kiyomei

SCORE: 1 | 72 VIEWS | IN 1 FOLDER

Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite surely deals with a lot of these decks but isn't always easy to get onto the battlefield that early apart from cheating her out with Loyal Retainers through either Survival of the Fittest or Fauna Shaman or just a genuinely explosive starts. But Edric and most of these decks still want to set up for their "Combo turn" be it extra turns or Infinite combat steps so you still need answers to that trough the form of Stax we are already using And just take some hits or prepare to block with this Creature heavy deck :).

Speaking of, Prime Speaker Vannifar might replace my worst-in-slot although I haven't spent much time testing her out. Not a fan of the "sorcery only" restriction.

Not running her yet (got a part about her in the primer and some comments back as well I think). But she has potential surely just not sold on it yet as POD still does it better!

I had not seen your sideboard section before, thanks for sharing! It definitely has some really interesting things going on and will be trying them out.

Am I living under a rock or is Verity Circle recent addition? Every Derevi deck is suddenly using it.

Dankey synergizes well in the current meta for CEDH with a lot of cards

I find this card to be really strong at the moment and will remain a good tech for Derevi especially. If you would only manage one draw per turn you're still getting a very good deal while only costing you 3 Mana. If your opponents have mana dorks or any utility creatures you're going to drown in card advantage. and when they avoid tapping their utility creatures to starve you from free draws? Well, you just succeeded and taxed them for 3 mana.

Extras:

• A hermit activation gives you a card and the Fatestitcher versions give you another wich potentially could draw your interaction...

• Kiki will give you your deck if you wanted to (because of the may trigger)...

• Derevi triggers will be able to generate you free card advantage if all creatures are not already tapped of course!!!

• current toolbox cards and some combo cards like Yisan, Selvala, and so many more that require a tap effect will net you card advantage...

• etc,etc...

hope that makes sense ;)