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Cellodude, you lose when you draw a card and you can't, not when you run out of cards.
May 28, 2014 5:40 p.m.
What can seriously make this good is the fact that you have a free mulligan if you have no land in your hand. So unlimited mulligan until you get perfect hand?
July 4, 2014 5:35 p.m.
/ nvm, apparently you have to still drop one card per mulligan
July 4, 2014 5:37 p.m.
Have you thought of an official name for this deck? How does "All for none" or "Madman's Redemption" sound? btw Would sideboarding a Sol Ring help at all in Vintage?
You COULD replace the Cabal Therapy with a Sol Ring , one more Wild Cantor and one more Dread Return (that can still be used with a Chrome Mox ).Keeping in mind this is just trying to stay tournament legal.
July 5, 2014 3:21 a.m.
Now that I think about it, if you have one of the combo cards in hand, for example Laboratory Maniac
, but no Cabal Therapy
in hand, you could mill, wait for the four Narcomoeba
to return to the field, then pay Cabal Therapy
's flashback cost by sacking one Narcomoeba
or what you milled yourself with, discard Laboratory Maniac
and leave the remaining three or four for Dread Return
's flashback and continue with the combo. Now what if that were to happen but with one or even two Narcomoeba
still in hand? Just wait for the other ones to return to the field and use what you milled yourself with as part of the flashback cost for Dread Return
, whether it's Balustrade Spy
or Undercity Informer
Have two combo cards in hand at once (EVEN A Narcomoeba MAKING THREE)?! Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Angel of Glory's Rise still in hand?! Hopeless?! Nope. If possible, play Summoner's Pact to get a Spirit guide and/or just sack a Spirit guide to play a Wild Cantor . (Should have minimum 5 creatures on field by this point, including (possible) 3 Narcomoeba .) Sack two creatures by casting two seperate Cabal Therapy flashback costs, and discard the two (or three) combo cards. Then continue with the combo. For this case specifically, if a Wild Cantor can't be played, you're out of luck, or if you've still got a Narcomoeba in hand, try messing around with remaining mana in your pool. Still damn beautiful.
TL;DR Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!
July 5, 2014 4:21 a.m.
Sorry, I don't mean to spam but in the last paragraph, by sacking two combo cards I meant Azami, Lady of Scrolls and Angel of Glory's Rise so the combo can still work. I'm gonna wait for others to talk before I do again, whew. I'm constructing this deck for sure.
July 5, 2014 4:29 a.m.
nvm again, it's on Star City Games: "Oops, All the Spells!"
July 6, 2014 8:02 a.m.
What if Dread Return is in your starting hand or draw? You "full" your hand and discard it in the cleanup step? Isn't that "pause" dangerous?
August 5, 2014 6:57 p.m.
August 6, 2014 2:27 a.m.
Ops all spells... An Underworld Cerberus Build is more reliable.
August 11, 2014 7:15 p.m.
I don't see how an Underworld Cerberus would work with this deck, could you elaborate?
August 12, 2014 11:41 a.m.
Ah legacy, the place where crazy combos are awesome and people don't understand how they work <3
August 12, 2014 1:22 p.m.
Underworld Cerberus victory frees up a card slot, which is, by itself, better. It also minimizes dead hands resulting from drawing into combo components: in a deck using the Angel as a Dread Return target, drawing Angel of Glory's Rise , Laboratory Maniac , Dread Return , or Azami is problematic, whereas a deck using the Cerberus only has to worry about drawing the Cerberus itself or drawing Dread Return. This is a considerable improvement over the Angel-based method.
August 13, 2014 11:22 a.m.
Scenario: Opening hand #1: Summoner's Pact, Undercity Informer, Simian Spirit Guide, Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, Dread Return, Simian Spirit Guide
I keep. I exile a Simian Spirit Guide and use the mana to cast Wild Cantor . I sacrifice Wild Cantor for a black mana and use the black mana to play Dark Ritual . I use two of the mana from Dark Ritual to play Cabal Ritual . That gives me a total of four black mana. I cast Undercity Informer and use my last remaining mana to activate its ability, putting my library into my graveyard and four Narcomoeba 's onto the battlefield. I sacrifice a Narcomoeba to flashback Cabal Therapy, targeting myself and naming Dread Return , which I then discard. I also get a zombie token thanks to Bridge from Below . I sacrifice a Narcomoeba to flashback Cabal Therapy on my opponent, naming whatever card I suspect might be a problem and getting another zombie token. If I see something that it still threatening, I sacrifice a third Narcomoeba to flashback my last Cabal Therapy and get rid of it, possibly getting another zombie token if my opponent hadn't already had any cards discarded. I then sacrifice three creatures, say one Narcomoeba and two zombie tokens, to flashback Dread Return targeting Underworld Cerberus . All of my creatures in my graveyard go to my hand. I exile a Simian http://static.tappedout.net/None_medium.jpgSpirit Guide for a red mana and use it to play Wild Cantor . I exile two Elvish Spirit Guide 's for two mana, sacrifice Wild Cantor for a blue mana, and cast Laboratory Maniac . With the Maniac on the battlefield, I cycle a Street Wraith and win
August 13, 2014 11:29 a.m.
August 13, 2014 11:39 a.m.
The way the milling rule works is that if you mill until you hit a land and don't get one you lose right their. This gives you no time to play any additional cards once you use one of your mill cards. Your dead before you can do anything. Sorry to say.
August 28, 2014 1:12 a.m.
You lose once you can't "draw"
The milling effect of this deck doesn't make you draw, it makes you reveal the card, so you will be fine :)
August 28, 2014 5:56 p.m.
Noob question here, but anyways: How do you tap a Wizard on turn one? Wouldn't any card sent to battlefield from graveyard have summoning sickness until turn 2?Is it because Azami, Lady of Scrolls 's activated ability technically bypasses the "no tap rule", since it doesn't have the "tap" symbol in its wording?Or am I missing something else?
In any case, an amazing deck!
September 18, 2014 3:56 p.m.
what is the use of Spoils of the Vault ? superb deck!!!!
October 13, 2014 10:49 a.m.
October 30, 2014 5:52 p.m.
November 3, 2014 9:35 p.m.
How does Spoils of the Vault work on this deck?
November 10, 2014 8:35 a.m.
How do you use Undercity Informer's ability if you can't sac a creature.
November 21, 2014 4:22 p.m.
December 23, 2014 4:35 p.m.
-If this doesn't work you lose
-Chromatic Star would cost you an extra 2 to put on the table and activate and you would need to have it in your hand to go off. The beauty of the combo is that it dumps everything in the graveyard, then reanimate everything with Flashback effects
December 23, 2014 10:46 p.m.
I'm new to legacy (usually play modern on standar or EDH) but this look very good, and what a sideboard! +1 of course
January 27, 2015 1:33 p.m.
Hate to sya it, but it looks a lot like http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1164.
March 31, 2015 10:54 a.m.
Uh... What green creatures are you tutoring for with Summoner's Pact?
June 2, 2015 12:37 a.m.
Hey just built this deck plus sideboard to its entirety! Super excited to go play it. Took me 4 months due to crazy expensive sideboard but nothing some good ol trading couldn't handle! Love it!
June 29, 2015 10:32 p.m.
Because legacy!But also because price incresed in the past 2 years
July 16, 2015 3:10 p.m.
July 25, 2015 1:38 p.m.
Incase anyone was wondering, he stole this deck from TheManaSourse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5khRZmkBvc
August 10, 2015 8:31 p.m.
He last updated this deck before the video was released.
August 20, 2015 11:34 p.m.
I like the deck, +1. Please checkout my deck: Turn 1 Worldspine Win.
August 25, 2015 3:53 p.m.
This is actually a list from an established legacy archetype called "oops, all spells" it and dredge are supposedly the fastest combo decks in the format, but dredge has the plus of being $500 cheaper
October 13, 2015 11:56 a.m.
Instead of Azami/glory/LabMan, the other win-cons you could run are:
November 12, 2015 10:40 p.m.
November 17, 2015 10:44 a.m.
Renaud I saw your comment and agree with you the summoning sickness rule is that the creature can't attack or tap unless it has haste, it's still tapping, Frampypants you need a human wizard with haste like Skirk Alarmist which may or may not be a human, based on most websites I have looked at people consider it human, you can look too, also this website says it is human
January 2, 2016 9:43 p.m.
January 2, 2016 9:50 p.m.
Renaud & jstieps You're not 100% wrong. If a creature has a tap symbol without haste it's tap ability cannot be used. but because Azami, Lady of Scrolls has an effect like Heritage Druid you are allowed to tap any wizard, regardless of summoning sickness. If you have any concerns with my point, please google into heritage druid first, as it is an extremely similar case. Hope I cleared things Up. :D
January 5, 2016 6:19 p.m.
Ok thanks omega_helix it made me confused why no one noticed that, but that really helps my understanding, thanks for clarification
January 5, 2016 8:57 p.m.
Well its official. Everyone here is an idiot. There is no way this deck can possibly win turn one (in the way described using Lab Maniac[not belcher])... EVER. Did it ever occur to you that the wizard you must tap to win the game will have SUMMONING SICKNESS??? Is the whole world gone mad or am I missing something???
January 31, 2016 11:08 p.m.
January 31, 2016 11:15 p.m.
I don't need the turn 1 win and am fine with winning on a future turn. Is there a way to do this without Angel of Glory's Rise?
The reason is that I am building a collection of decks for each color permutation (casual) and I am looking for a URBG deck. Without the Angel, this deck fits perfectly.
February 21, 2016 12:11 a.m.
No, there is no summoning sickness problem here. See the "Rulings" at the bottom of this card to understand why: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=152556
March 5, 2016 11:38 a.m.
It's all great, but is there a reason you don't main board the LED's? They basically save you from having any combo pieces in hand except 2 Narco's, and can be used to activate the Undercity Informer. This lets you use 1 dark ritual or cabal ritual to get UI out then use LED to get all you cards in hand into the graveyard and activate the 1 mana cost. Worst case it can be used with the mill trigger on the stack to get your cards in hand into the graveyard. I would remove 2/2 of SSG/ESG, or maybe just all 4 SSG since you can use summoner's pact to go get ESG. That then frees up 4 sideboard cards, maybe 4 Pacts of Negation or something.
March 21, 2016 1:24 p.m.
I don't think it works because the cards say until, then put then put them in your graveyard, thus if you never reveal a land nothing happens. Please tell me/ send a link to explain this ruling.
March 26, 2016 10:52 p.m.
You perform the action until it is fulfilled or you cannot perform the action any more. In this case there are no more cards in your library so you cease revealing cards. At that point you continue with the rest of the cards text.
In response to other people here talking about this causing you to lose, you don't lose until you need to draw a card and there are none in your library, since you are revealing cards in your library, not drawing them, you do not lose from that effect.
It is similar to the Nagging Thoughts or Fork in the Road from this new set. You go get two cards and put one in your graveyard, this is not discarding, it is going straight from the library zone to the graveyard zone, thus you cannot activate a madness cost from that effect.
April 20, 2016 5:23 p.m.
Someone please explain to me why an $850 USD deck is 'budget'? Thanks. As for constructive comments... WOAH this deck is amazing
June 12, 2016 10:29 a.m.
But if you run out of cards to draw? Wouldnt that mean you lost the game?
June 13, 2016 7:24 p.m.
July 2, 2016 12:38 p.m.
July 2, 2016 12:39 p.m.
December 12, 2016 1:57 p.m.
December 14, 2016 5:38 a.m.
I originally had a bit of a different idea of how to make this deck work with UC but as I tested it I moved closer to the original and deleted the deck I had made. I'd personally suggest another Wild Cantor in the newly open spot but that is just my preference.
December 14, 2016 5:50 p.m.
January 12, 2017 8:37 p.m.
What I don't understand, why I asked my previous question, is 3 Cabal Therapy's. I have done a lot of research on this sort of deck over the last couple years in order to make Demoralizer. I know my deck is quite a bit different but if you have 3 of the cards that need to be in your graveyard in hand instead why not just mulligan? I mean In certain and likely fairly rare instances you could get those 3 and a 4 card combo as well but is it worth it?
January 12, 2017 8:47 p.m.
Spazik008 It is, that's why the transformational sideboard. Any GY hate is going to kill this, but that is mostly post sideboard. The hope is to win game 1 on the back of your combo turn 1/2 and then, if your opponent likely has this SB plan side out the combo for charbelcher that doesn't care about the GY.
Cetriel Cabal Therapy is good because you can cast it from your hand for B if you have 1 to spare, it can hit your opponents hand for force, and it can also be used from the GY from your narcomeba's to get combo pieces out of your hand if you need to.
May 1, 2017 5:53 p.m.
I completely understand its uses. The twisted mess of math behind this deck, however, makes things a little more difficult. I am actually unsure of how to explain this to someone who hasn't done some 500+ test plays wile recording the data so please bear with me.
The idea with a deck like this would be to get it to go off as fast as possible. As in turn 1. Each subsequent turn drastically lowers your chances of this. The faster you can get it going the lower your chances of being disrupted are. This is made ever more imperative with the choice to use Summoner's Pact as by the following turn if you haven't won you have now lost. Thus I chose to leave Summoner's Pact out of my decks Demoralizer and Bookwurm. This, however, is personal preference based off my uncanny ability to have the worst of luck.
So lets look at what you need in your hand.
Best case scenario you end up with Lotus Petal Dark Ritual and another one mana single card. You could, however, have Chrome Mox and also need a card to exile for the imprint. What if you don't have Lotus Petal or Chrome Mox + throw away black card? How about no Dark Ritual? Wild Cantor adds another card to the lineup. While Manamorphose will also do this for you and allow you to draw another card it has its own problems which I will likely cover (if I don't forget).
So we are now up to 4 needed cards in a best case scenario. As stated above and also corroborated in the "Statistics" section of Demoralizer, there is only about a 40% chance of a turn 1 win. Thus you would need to mulligan in order to get the cards you need while sacrificing hand size. This is where I put more of my stock in the gamble. However you lose hand size in the process.
Now add in the chances that you have more than 1 card that can't be in your hand (Angel of Glory's Rise Laboratory Maniac Azami, Lady of Scrolls and also Narcomoeba though it does you no good to discard Narcomoeba). Thus the likelihood of needing to use more than one Cabal Therapy on yourself just decreased drastically.
Yes I understand that you still have the option to use it on your opponent. However the only card that allows you to look at your opponent's hand is Gitaxian Probe, which there are only 4 of in the deck. Without it you are playing yet another game of chance. I also understand that you may know the type of deck your opponent is playing as people tend to stick very much to the meta in Legacy but you are still taking a gamble. What if you choose the wrong one? The likelihood of even getting to a point where you would take that gamble prior to casting by paying the flashback cost is next to none and by the time you would have cast with flashback they likely would have disrupted you already anyway.
Basically, this deck has no solutions for pushing into mid or late game. Remember, on the whole, Legacy is a turn 3 win format. If you can't get it to go off immediately you will lose. Spending 1 needed mana on a gamble that will likely push you into turn 4+ situation is not conducive to the play style of this deck. Personally it is a gamble I wouldn't take.
While Cabal Therapy IS a very important, nay necessary part of this deck, I just can't get behind having more than 2 in the deck. It is better to rely on mulligans to get the hand that you need. Then again you know my feelings on Summoner's Pact.
On a side note. Using Manamorphose can also be a bit of a gamble as you have no way of storing that 2 mana if you don't get the card you need. This can also push you into a turn 4+ situation.
May 4, 2017 1:27 a.m.
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|Date added||4 years|
|Last updated||3 years|
This deck is Legacy legal.
|Folders||5. Casual Funsies, Amazing, do want, Fav decks, Pidän, awesome , Decks I like, Cool Decks, mazzi interessanti, Decks I want, See all 352|
|Top rank||#2 on 2013-03-18|