cube colorwheel

Baby's First Multiplayer Cube (cards to include?)

By TwoIdiots

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Description

Archetypes:

Izzet: Artifacts matter

Azorius: Blink

Dimir: Zombie Tribal

Simic: Domain

Gruul: Big Zoo / Token Tramplers

Golgari: Sacrifice / Morbid

Selesnya: Enchantress

Boros: Token Army

Rakdos: No-fun only punishment

Orzhov: Drain 'em

Gold (95)


TwoIdiots says... #1

Change Log 01/05/17

Added colored artifacts for the Dimir artifact archetype. Thought it would be a good idea to include some Dimir/X artifacts as well for some added variance.

OVERALL THOUGHTS: I'm a bit worried that this archetype as it is now builds itself too easily. I would prefer to have more cross-pollination among archetypes and less "this card is only good in the artifact deck". There is a risk that having both goblins (which are basically junk cards if no one is in the archetype) and artifacts (many of which are only good in the Dimir archetype) dilute the cube too much, making the less archetype-driven decks worse off due to fewer playables. What do you think?

May 1, 2017 10:54 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #2

May 1, 2017 11:23 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #3

I agree that this and Goblins might be a bit single minded and binary (either you get the deck or you don't) i don't know how big a problem this is gonna be but at least for ub i would be thinking more about cards that rewards having artifacts improvise, metalcraft, [ensoul artifact] the new ub ensoul, and then sprinkle artifacts in the two colours and add a couple of good artifact alternatives to spells(spellbombs etc) . I'm more into the executioners capsule then trading post here.

May 1, 2017 5:11 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #4

I agree with you in principle, but I am worried that "artifacts matter" cards might dilute the pool too much. I think a better approach is to find colored (and colorless) artifacts that are good regardless of whether they fit into the artifact deck, with a few payoff cards that push the archetype (like Tez, and we could also include stuff like Glissa, the Traitor if we want to open up the archetype a bit). This way you aren't locked into the archetype after your first few picks and you can draft a little less linearly. Also, if we include Glissa, then there is a stronger case for Trading Post I think, since it could also work with the Golgari Sac archetype :)

Also, I think we should include better mana alternatives to match the power level we seem to be moving towards. Shocks plus fetches? If we include fetches, then we have a great opportunity for Blood Moon, Ob Nixilis, Unshackled and Aven Mindcensor. Thoughts?

May 2, 2017 3:44 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #5

Oh, and let's start signing our comments so that it's easier to follow the conversation.

/N

May 2, 2017 3:44 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #6

CHANGELOG 02/05/17

Thought it would be good to show Simic some love to help define the archetype a bit. Thinking maybe ramp? Also added some stuff to make Selesnya tokens more viable. Thinking Embalm could be good here, as embalmed creatures are tokens.

/N

May 2, 2017 6:34 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #7

CHANGELOG 02/05/17

Just wanted to make sure I didn't forget.

/N

May 2, 2017 7:58 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #8

CHANGELOG 02/05/17

Misc.

Orzhov

May 2, 2017 2:55 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #9

I like all of these inclusion, i amonkhet a big fan of the direction of black and green cards. I made som additions

Whirler Rogue good in General and a bomb in ub

Merchant's Dockhandthis might be to all in (?)

Thirst for Knowledge really good in ub, 23 card in blue

March of the Machines well.. Maybe?

Faerie Mechanist with a higher density of artifacts this might go in more decks.

Shape Anew strictly worse and harder to build Tinker

Fabricate

Batterskull

Cranial Plating i don't know about this one

Darksteel Citadel

Vault of Whispers Seat of the Synod i like sending a message by only including the two

Hibernation's End i love this card, so do you!

/E

May 2, 2017 5:13 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #10

Very happy with many of these additions. Whirler Rogue and Thirst for Knowledge are exactly the kind of "good stuff" inclusions that I think we were missing! I also like fabricate in here, as it works in any U/x deck with artifact bombs, which we currently have a lot of.

One thing we might want to consider is Clue tokens. Think that could be something?

/N

May 3, 2017 1:23 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #11

O clues could be cool, we'll have to look into that! In The meentime i updated with these bad Boys

Blood Rites good in red across the board and a good slash for BG

Goblin Bombardment good in Goblins/tokens or even BR

Bonfire of the Damned this might be to opressive

Grim Haruspex potential for BG might be underwhelming

May 3, 2017 5:29 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #12

Lots of text coming up, so get ready!

Regarding your additions:

Blood Rites and Goblin Bombardment: great in 1v1, but I think it might be a bit too all-in in multiplayer. let's discuss!

Bonfire: I don't like that it affects only one player. Very mean. Let's find a niceer alternative.

Grim Haruspex: This is a great inclusion I think. Very glad to have it in the cube :)

CHANGELOG 03/05/17

Fetchlands:

Shocklands:

Fetches means some new additions:

And just some fun stuff:

  • Pyromancer's Goggles (cool in Izzet, but maybe too narrow)
  • Lingering Souls (just value, good in many archetypes)
  • Fork (worth it? Well have to see what the spells end up looking like)
  • Reverberate (see above)
  • Commandeer (this is probably better than fork/reverberate, but who knows)
  • Misdirection (see above)
  • Combat Celebrant (Im more curious about this card than anything else)
  • Insult to Injury (great in token swarm and gruul beats)
  • Never//Return (one-for-one removal isnt great, but the additional value could be good)
  • Cut to Ribbons (kinda just want to try this)
  • Garruk Relentless  Flip (very good in Golgari sacrifice)

General notes:

I think Im pretty high on these split/modal cards. I want to use them just because theyre new, but I also I think that multi-use cards like these could be interesting because of minimized card disadvantage. What do you think?

Regarding lands: we should figure out which we want to cut. Obviously the guildgates are bad maybe we give scrylands instead? I think the tri-lands should go to reduce the amount of 4-c decks in each pod. It looks like the format will be durdly enough as it is. Speaking of durdling

I know youre not going to like this, but I think we might have to add more ways to speed up the game. I dont really want to see a format where defensive posture is the standard. Right now we have goad and rakdos to force action, but if we end up needing more I do recommend adding monarch (or something else if you have a better idea). Basically, I dont want non-red pods to play the game without pressure, so whatever we do to mitigate that risk is good for me

/N

May 3, 2017 8:10 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #13

Some stuff I think I accidentally added, but wanted to actually discuss first:+Necropotence (Do we wanna go there?)+Yawgmoth's Bargain (Theres no combo pay-off that I can see. Is this card still too dangerous?)+Ancient Tomb (Fast mana is fast, but then again you do become arch enemy pretty fast)+Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite (is this too much?)+Spellweaver Volute (this card is just weird, but seems like it could be cool. Thoughts?)

My bad...

CHANGELOG 03/05/17

Enchantress:

Off-color Enchantments:

More stuff for Orzhov Drain:

Other goodies:

Notes on Enchantress:

First, the payoffs are not super broken. There arent that many cards that REALLY reward you for having or interacting with enchantments, but once the deck comes together its highly synergistic. We could make people more interested in choosing Enchantress as an archetype by adding lots of g and gX enchantment-based mana acceleration in place of cards like llanowar elves (while still leaving the best dorks). Decks that would be interested in ramping might suddenly find themselves interested in enchantment cards like wild growths of bounty of the luxa. What do you think?

Also, Im worried that enchantress skews removal in general towards white. Since so much of the archetypes pulls are removals, we end up having more white removal in the cube.

May 3, 2017 3:58 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #14

I really like what you say about replacing cards with enchantment equivalents! I don't think either necropotence or yawgbar is something that we want in the cube, i believe that they will either be broken in some decks or just unplayable.

Regarding the White removal i see your concern, is it possible to do enchantress without including to much of that type of removal? Oblivion ring and pacificm are obviously in but more then that?

Concerning blood rites, i think blood rites is just a strong card with a lot of play and acts both as a value engine, screws with combat math and as a wincon. My only concern is that Maybe it's to slow. This does not apply to Goblin bombardment in the same extent.

Overall i like a lot of the inclusions and i'm interested to see how the new split cards turn out! I'll make som additions for uw in a bit /E

May 3, 2017 4:46 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #15

Update focused on UW control

Supreme Verdict

Planar Cleansing

Fumigate

Wave of Reckoning

Some amount of sweepers will be needed to make the archetype playable and these are the ones that i feel gives the best direction

Wall of Omens

Guard Gomazoa

Wall of Essence

Wall of Frost

Fog Bank

To hold the fort until victory

Propaganda

Ghostly Prison

War Tax

I'm not in love with these but they might do something

Brago, King Eternal I think this guy is just good

Detention Sphere maybe

Karmic Justice good but maybe too narrow?

/E

May 4, 2017 4:20 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #16

Also now we need to talk about making cuts. The way i see it we have to make sure that each colour and archetype is balanced in power, playability and diversity (creatures/non-creatures) depending on how many gold and colourless cards we want i can see this being a discussion.

The way i see it each colour has four variants and a "value" category for exampel:If we go for 60 cards of each colour black would look something like this ;

10 cards for Bw

10 cards for Bu

10 cards for Br

10 cards for Bg

20 value cards

The archetype cards are not necessary only playable in the archetype but should promote the archetype while drafting.

The value cards should be things like removal, ca or just cards that are good in either archetype.

I would say that around 60 to 80 cards of each colour is where we want to be and at least 10 cards of each archetype but i would rather do closer to 15.

Thoughts?

/E

May 4, 2017 9:16 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #17

I agree, it's time to start trimming. But first, we still need to settle on some archetypes...

What will we do for Simic? Looking at the cards we currently have, it's not clear what direction we should go. We have some of the elements of tap control, some ramp and turboland (i think this could be the most fun, but i dunno).

What do we do with Azorius? We currently have a base for Tax, Fliers . So confused!

With regards to cards per color per archetype: I think this is a fine approach, but I'm not sure about the numbers. We're going to have a lot of cross-over cards. How do we count them?

Also, I don't think that creatures/noncreatures need to be evenly distributed among colors. For example, we don't have any B/x midrange decks, so it's not critical for me to have on-curve B creatures. But... I could be wrong about that :) Thoughts?

/N

May 4, 2017 3:15 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #18

Thinking a bit about how to make UB artifacts flex a bit into R and G without forcing it. Esper is already there, I think. Came up with these additions:

Sultai:

Grixis:

Other good Artifacts that dont require you to build around:

Misc

Removed:

Other potential cuts (not removed):

  • Lieges. We could keep the UW one if we wanna do UW fliers, and we could keep the WR one to give tokens a bit more edge. Could also keep Creakwood Liege for sac fodder in GB
  • Cavern Harpy We dont have a deck for it
  • Boros Charm Its a bit too narrow
  • Lexivore This is going to be a pain in the ass in complex board states.

General notes: we have way too many indestructible creatures. Lets tone it down a bit.

/N

May 4, 2017 3:17 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #19

I agree with all of these. When it comes to creature balance i feel that all colours does not need the same amount of creatures but we still need to make sure that each colour has enough to be playable.

I also feel that we need to cut down on gold cards and maybe on high end cards. I think that the curve is really high at the moment.

/E

May 5, 2017 5:02 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #20

Hey mate,

adding these cards. Some nice stuff for Boros. I think we are pretty set on this archetype. Now we just need to settle on Azorius and Simic and then we can start making cuts :)

CHANGELOG 05/05/17

May 5, 2017 4:31 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #21

CHANGELOG 08/05/17

Additions:

Cuts:

Potential cuts (not removed, waiting your feedback):

Notes:

Goblin Tribal just didnt seem viable unless you draft AND CAST Krenko. The deck leans too hard on one card and is too all-in for the multiplayer format. Sorry Goblins!

I left in the GU liege in case we want to do tap control in Simic, but I think we should move away from that archetype. I think I am more into ramp (Rashmi etc.) or cheating (Show and Tell effects). Maybe Simic is just good enough that we dont really need to plan too much for it. I dunno.

Still torn about Azorius. Do you think we have enough control in the format as-is? Can we do creature control with blinks? I want to move away from walls and wraths if possible, but I also want control (in whatever form we decide to do it) to be viable. Its important to me that there is room for control players to have plenty of fun drafting and playing, but its also important to keep the pace of the game. I think where we are now is a good mix of aggro/midrange slugfest plus control elements that cut them down and build CA over time.

/N

May 8, 2017 12:08 p.m.

TwoIdiots says... #22

Additions (trying to push boros. We can remove anything on this list, of course):

Things to consider for UW (not added, lets discuss):

Cuts:

Some notes:

Do we include sigets? I think it might be a good idea.

/N

May 10, 2017 1:33 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #23

I really like this direction of uw, seems a lot stronger and more forgiving to draft. It plays well with the rest of the cube and there is definitly room for some crazy stuff in the colour pair!Potential addition

Aerie Mystics good splash in fliers

Warden of Evos Isle duh

Thunderclap Wyvern this is just good

Drogskol Reaver high, high end of the fliers deck, good with equipment

What do you think of a blink subtheme? It works well with some of the cards already in the cube and with these additions i think it could be cool. Adding some blink would make it so that both wx and ux could go in that direction and bring more depth to The cube. Exampels Conjurer's Closet

Ghostly Flicker

Momentary Blink

Deadeye Navigator

Eerie Interlude

Mistmeadow Witch

Roon of the Hidden Realm

There are more but these are the ones i came up with off the top of my head.

To clarify, i'm not saying that we should make an archetype out of this, just that it could be good value in the cube. Since most of the blink spells doubles as protection i could see them go into multiple decks.

I like the cuts and I could also see trimming the number of high end artifacts. Just to smooth out the cube.

/E

May 10, 2017 8:41 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #24

CHANGELOG 11/05/17

IN

Regarding flyers, here are some good draws into bant. Not sure what the rest of the payoff is for green (maybe you grab cards like Glare of Subdual, Sylvan Library, Survival of the Fittest, Edric, Spymaster of Trest or big green beaters), but I figured we should enable that color combo a bit more while staying on-theme:

OUT

Regarding blink: I would be fine with that, but I think it would be better to see if there's room once we start trimming down the cube.

Green is looking pretty underpowered right now (no real big threats, not much utility. we should fix that)

Thoughts?

/N

May 11, 2017 3:42 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #25

CHANGELOG 15/5/17

Wedge/Shard additions based on our discussion yesterday:

Cuts:

Colorless:

Gold:

White:

Blue:

Green:

Note: Nothing has been cut yet. Do you agree with them? If not, please let me know which :)

/N

May 15, 2017 10:40 a.m.

TwoIdiots says... #26

Suggested Cuts:

COLORLESS

  • Hymn of the Wilds (this card sucks in multiplayer. Every deck needs its instants and sorceries)

GOLD