At the beginning of your upkeep, exile the top card of each opponent's library. Until end of turn, you may cast nonland cards from among those exiled cards, and you my spend mana as though it were mana of any colour to cat those spells.
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Stolen Strategy Discussion
2 weeks ago
Hello! I love to see how you are updating the list and our versions are kind becoming more different. I start to feel like i have my own deck instead of just a copy and it's quite great :D i'm also glad to have been able to help you improve your list!
Some coments about stuff you said that called my attention:
1) I've been consistently and surprisingly impressed by Lightning Bolt! Acts like a doom blade most of the time, instant speed is huge, and the fact that can hit walkers is the best. I've noticed there's not much efficient red removal that hits walkers! I wish they printed something like a Flame Slash that can hit walkers too, and the lack of it is what's keeping me out of Mizzium Mortars, it's sorcery and doesn't kill walkers. I'm gonna stick to bolt for now, and i can't honestly believe i'm defending that card in edh multiplayer xd
2) I also like Rolling Earthquake despite it not hitting walkers cause it's the most efficient X damage boardwipe that there is, and i love the fact that hits players. It's a fireball, can end the game on the spot, or can help take out problematic opponents. The alternative i was considering for an effect like that was Comet Storm, but for now i'm sticking with the earthquake until further testing.
3) I'm very curious to hear how Tilonalli's Summoner goes for you. To me that card has always looked like a win-more thing or a bad Tempt with Vengeance, but i'm willing to be proven wrong. Pia Nalaar looks good to me cause it's very consistent value (i always loved her activated abilities) and the fact that thopters seems to be grenzo's best friends.
I'm still a bit on defense about Legion Warboss. I like from the rabblemaster that he can pull out a shitton of damage on its own. I'm gonna be playing warboss in standard so i'm waiting to get some general experience with the card before i put it in.
Furthermore Experimental Frenzy looks really good and something i wanna test after i get some games with Stolen Strategy. I feel it's mostly an enabler for strategies that want to be super proactive at some point, and i'm not sure it fits ours as we wanna be very controlling and oportunistic at times. I'm also not sure we have as much ways to do things with the cards that get stuck in our hand. The fact however that you can just destroy it when it stops being good is what makes it worth the shot, so i'll be testing it at some point, probably after i get the chance to see it playing a bit in standard too.
5) I forgot to mention last time, but i was also considering taking off Insurrection for Molten Primordial. The cealing of the primordial is lower, as he steals less stuff, but i like that he offers more consistent value and gives you a big body you can keep, which make it better than insurrection against spell-based decks.
Now that i have more time i'll work on putting my version on tappedout with a bunch of anotations for these specific cards that are different from your take on the deck, and i will link your version so people can see the basic explanation of the concept, general card choices and your videos. We will have a nice place going on for people wanting to make a strong Grenzo list, which is exciting!
3 weeks ago
Hello ^^ I haven't put my version in tappedout yet, but I'll do it as soon as I can! The changes I tried over your version are minimal for now. I'll list them one by one:
1) in Loyal Apprentice, out Young Pyromancer. The few times I've played pyromancer I haven't been impressed at all, while the apprentice have been an overperformer. Maybe it's a matter of playstyle, but I've come to appreciate haste a lot. I was also considering taking out Thorn of Amethyst so it's probably worth to have pyromancer instead, as cheap token producers are very good in this deck, although I'm still not quite sure if pyromancer scales as well as apprentice as the game goes on; apprentice topthers having haste and flying is huge to push in grenzo triggers.
2) Took off Moggcatcher for Glorybringer. As an standard red player I've been consistently impressed with the dragon. The way I see it, it's a heavy hitter, able to push in damage and get grenzo triggers on late game fast, that sometimes kills stuff. I haven't drawn it yet so I'm gonna consider this a flexible slot, and try some other alternatives over time. Stolen Strategy feels also like a good replacement for moggcatcher, as both are grindy cards.
3) took off Sandstone Oracle for Chandra, Flamecaller. I see why the oracle is here: helps catching up, can't be easily casted with our colorless fast mana, has a nice flying body, and can be quite grindy with Daretti, Scrap Savant or Goblin Welder. However, in my experience it rarely does enough if you are not in a dedicated Daretti deck. 7 mana is a lot and unless you have some player going crazy on the table, the draw etb is not that good if you can't consistently recurr it. The fact that it dies to artifact removal is huge too. Put in Chandra instead cause is 1 mana less, the 0 ability is a very consistent way to get you cards, the tokens she produces have haste and help with grenzo triggers (they are also great sac fodder, and as Spawning Pit has been super good the few times I've play it, I'm super happy to have more psinergy with it), they close games very quickly too. Chandra also is a board wipe in a pinch and very good to have in play when you Jokulhaups. I still haven't got to draw an play the card but as the deck generates lotta tokens to defend her, I feel it's gonna be decent, what do you think?
3) Alternatives to Mishra's Workshop. Put in Temple of the False God cause it felt similar, but it leds to some feel bad moments so I'm considering taking it off. Crystal Vein is always a mana source that can give you a burst when needed, and Scavenger Grounds doesn't ramp you but it's such and easy inclusion to hate on graveyards, something the deck lacks.
General considerations! Man I miss Chaos Warp so much in this deck. It's an answer to Ghostly Prison effects that are very bad for us, walkers that bolt can't hit, indestructible eldrazis, stuff that our damage base removal can't kill... I feel those represent the three things this decks is weaker against: ramp to big creatures strategies, dedicated token strategies (with green) and pillow fort. The last feels less problematic cause generally pillow forts are annoying to everyone on the table so other players are gonna also throw removal at them. But I feel we are kinda hopeless against lotta big dudes cause almost none of our removal can si anything about them and our creatures are to small to trade. Token strategies present a wall of chunk blockers that's hard to attack into, that eventually get very big and ran over you quite easily.
I'm putting cards like glorybringer or chandra in the deck to be able to disrupt those strategies and kill them as quickly as possible. I just wanna as much cards that can act as removal as I can get Xd so I have Mizzium Mortars, Subterranean Tremors and Umezawa's Jitte in my radar. The freaking jitte is in my binder looking at my with puppy eyes asking me to play it, such a great card, does so much! Bolt is the card I'd maybe take off for any of those but I'm still not sure at all. And sorry for the wall of text. I love the deck and I'm putting a lot os thought and work into it :P Tell me what you think. Did you consider any of these cards?
3 weeks ago
Pinkie_Satanas: Hey, thanks! It's pretty sweet to find out that my list has inspired you to create one of your own. I still play this deck every once in a while but I've not had much time to update it. I think many of your suggestions make a lot of sense. As a general rule of thumb, anything that creates tokens is something we should always consider adding to this deck because tokens mean extra grenzo triggers. Loyal Apprentice is definitely a good suggestion (I think there's another token generator goblin now, too) and I'd play it in addition to Young Pyromancer--might cut Moggcatcher instead of pyro tho. I also like Stolen Strategy as another way of keeping up with our opponents in grindy games but think we should play it in addition to Outpost Siege--would probably cut Thorn of Amethyst, which I honestly don't think belongs to this deck (I tried a tax theme once but it just doesn't work as well as I wanted).
I'm not sure about Glorybringer. I don't think the haste thing matters a whole lot and the 4 dmg is not an ETB ability, so our opponents might kill it (path, swords, black removals) bfore we get a chance to deal 4 dmg to a creature. Also, you definitely do not want to play Geier Reach Sanitarium and valakut. Geier enables reanimate strategies and you cant do shit about it and with all the moon and land destruction spells, we'll rarely get to use valakut multiple times (it also has bad synergy with Extraplanar Lens). Other than that, I completely agree with your suggestions and as the other sets come out, feel free to chime in with new suggestions.
As I said in my last update, I don't have a lot of time to play mtg anymore, owing to my job responsibilities and family. So, if you really enjoy this deck, I can add a link in the description to your version of it (a more up-to-date version), as long as you keep the general principles. Best of luck testing your list! It's high variance but it's pretty fun when it gets out of control.
1 month ago
Hello ^^ I built this deck in paper with some proxis to play with my friends, and i'm very excited about it :D I cut mishra's workshop tho, cause i cannot realistically expect to get, and put Temple of the False God in its place instead, although i am also considering Crystal Vein there for ramp, or Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle and Geier Reach Sanitarium cause value. Besides that, i'm playing exactly the same decklist as you, and i'd love to read your thoughts on some cards i think might be good in the deck:
Glorybringer it's kind of a hasty evasive repetible flametongue kavu for 1 more mana. Haste and evasion is relevant to get to goad or exile some cards from opponents. I know costing extra mana is huge. What do you think?
Loyal Apprentice maybe this card flew under your radar cause it came out in august, but the few times i've played it seemed super good with low to the ground commanders. The fact that she pops out thopters with haste is huge, so you can get immediate value from her with grenzo in play. She and her thopters also have haste so it could help speed up the game, which could be good considering this deck has no haste enablers. I was considering put her in instead of Young Pyromancer cause i feel the psynergy with grenzo is better, although more volatile. Young pyromancer seems like adds more value on average, but with a lower cealing. Another card i considered to cut is Moggcatcher, as it's slow, but i'm still not sure if the loss of one tutor would damage the deck.
The last card i wanted to show you is Stolen Strategy, also a fairly recent one. I see this as a "catch-up" card on theme with the deck that helps to recover after a board wipe. Like Outpost Siege would do but on steroids. The problem i see is that this effect for 5 mana feels inefficient and the fact that doesn't let you play lands is kind of an issue.
That's all ^^ i'll be testing the deck and see how it goes. For now i had a bunch of 1vs1 games with and one multiplayer that was a blast, although my attackers only exiled lands with the grenzo triggers xd Thank you very much for putting so much effort in this list, explained it and showcasing it. I really wanted to have a good grenzo deck and i felt kind of helpless to build it.
1 month ago
Experimenting with Stolen Strategy. Thematically it is very Ib-ish, but it also has a minor stax effect that screws with top-of-the-library tutors. The potential of card advantage is pretty good in 4+ player games, and at the very least you are exiling people's card, which is already a good effect to have stapled to Grenzo, Havoc Raiser.
Also experimenting with the Mind's Eye slot again. I've never been that happy with whatever was in that spot, but when it wasn't a draw spell it was noticeable. Going to go back and forth between this and Howling Mine. Might even bring in a The Immortal Sun just to get a more broad effect. Really not sure what the right way to go is, now that I am so happy with all the rest of the draw this spot seems to be in constant flux.
2 months ago
2 months ago
No Problem, steal all the stuff! Too bad no red for Stolen Strategy