Creature — Antelope Beast
At the beginning of your upkeep, return a green creature you control to its owner's hand.
Printings View all
|Saviors of Kamigawa (SOK)||Uncommon|
Combos Browse all
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Stampeding Serow Discussion
1 month ago
Hey I play tons of Ponza and have done for years. I play mostly on MTGO so you local meta might be different if you play at a store, but here is my take on the cards. I think I wrote a smaller book of a comment sorry about that.
first off Inferno Titan!, turn 2 moss into turn 3 titan is the most powerful thing ponza can do. Remember he can be pumped with his ability and often swing for 12 or more damage (when targeting face with the ability) plus he shoots stuff down planeswalkers and creatures alike both when he is played, but also when he attacks. The absolute best finisher for the deck.
I love Bonfire of the Damned and have played with everything from 1 to 4 copies in my main board, the one sided board clear feels so good, but I have come to realise it is just too conditional. It is too reliant on the miracle, i kept telling myself it wasn't but it really is, 7 mana for 3 damage is not worth it, you are already dead to aggro and if you have enough mana to shoot someone down with a big spike you should have already have won. Anger of the Gods in the sideboard are just better wipeing you own dudes does not really matter if the opponent just loses to a wipe and the exile of creatures is so important vs graveyard stuff.
You play Boom / Bust which i have experimented with as well, you say it cost less than Pillage, this is not true as you need 2 mana and a untapped fetch in order to play it, so that is 3 mana, plus you need a fetch to play it that is super conditional even with 8 fetches. And depending on Bust part to win the game is not something you should never wish to happen.
Artifacts, one thing Ponza loses to is Aether Vial, all the land disruption does nothing against it. So in order not to lose to that i suggest to main board Pillage or Abrade they are so good with the flexibility doing what the deck is already trying to do and able to remove artifacts when needed is super useful. Other cards they help against is Cranial Plating in affinity, Oblivion Stone the only answer tron really has and Arcum's Astrolabe which bypasses all moon activity and of course all the stupid artifact creatures that randomly appear like Walking Ballista and Myr Superion.
I know you play Primal Command for all the artifacts and such nonsense, I have played it myself in the past, but for 5 mana it is really slow and to that it is also quite conditional on its effectiveness some games it can just outright win it like mill or somthing, but more often you will lose with it in hand and it is the worst. searching for a big guy to finish with is not much good either as you would much rather play the big guy insteal of the command and i have so often lost with the searched up guy in hand as the opponent will know to kill off your mana dorks or keep a counter in hand because you revealed your plan.
your Eternal Witness Stampeding Serow combo is cute, but playing cards that are not just good on their own are a big mistake, blue deck might get away with it, but green really relies upoun mana effectiveness. I see how you can use witness's with other cards in your deck and be able to slowly grind value out, but in reality something like Tireless Tracker would be much better as it just gives value by existing and can end the game.
Okay how to win vs the bad matcups like burn, storm and control. It is so hard to win vs storm, you already use Scavenging Ooze, but other cards i use on and off is Cindervines, Weather the Storm and Damping Sphere.
to win against burn the most effective strategy I have used is the Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emperion combo. otherwise Obstinate Baloth and Kitchen Finks works, the baloth having added bonus of being really good against Burning Inquiry and Liliana of the Veil.
lastly control, i absolutely hate control. oh well here the best thing is getting a Blood Moon out turn 2 it is so important that running stuff like Magus of the Moon is very much worth it. otherwise there is of course Thrun, the Last Troll and Choke.
Hope i helped you out in some way and not just made you angry or something.
11 months ago
I don't know if this is a good suggestion but maybe Savage Swipe . You definitely have enough 2 power creatures. Although I wouldn't recommend just playing a Prey Upon so I don't know. I do think however that Temur Sabertooth would be good for sure. It's not a bear but it could let you easily bounce your cheap (2 mana) bears back to your hand to get extra ETB effects. Decoction Module , Roaring Primadox , Stampeding Serow , Stampeding Wildebeests and Ambush Krotiq all have a similar effect but I don't think they are all worth playing. I also think that maybe Conjurer's Closet or Mimic Vat could be good additions. I think since bears aren't a supper strong tribe by them self your best bet is to maximize the ETB effects. (Which seems to be what you're doing.) I would say you could take out a few of the 2 mana 2/2s just because they don't do too too much and you seem to have a lot of them but I don't know. Like you said there aren't too many bears. Anyways I hope this is helpful. :)
11 months ago
Also, I see you have plenty of enter the battlefield effects, but no real way to flash them in and out once they've landed. Roaring Primadox , Stampeding Serow and Stampeding Wildebeests will help you get more out of your stuff! And since you mentioned draw card mechanics, Elvish Visionary is a nice, cheap way of getting more cards into your hand.
Hope this helps!
1 year ago
I agree that having a critical mass of high cost creatures can be a fundamental flaw in the Naya design. However I also stated that the line didn't necessarily have to be at power 5. It could be power 4.
Additionally Caretaker also takes CMC into account, so it functions with any creature spell that is CMC 5 or higher. That grants a lot of open space to utilize the mechanic outside the strict nature of Naya's theme.
Recent post: "“Wanted [the soulbond] to be a restrictive pairing” is not what I want at all. I was suggesting that creatures who pair with specific types of creatures is ground worth exploring. I think, in fact, that most of them will just be plain ‘ol Soulbond."
Earlier post: "Soulbond's biggest strike against is it's a complex mechanic. Many players like it, though. and if you can follow what's going on, it has good gameplay. I really don't know if this mechanic will ever return, but its popularity makes me think there's a chance.
So you see where I’m going with this? If X is paired with a creature with power Y or less, ...
Maybe some will be normal Soulbond, some will care about power/toughness, maybe one or two will care about beasts."
You contradict your previous statement. I can understand if you changed your mind but you make an adamant statement that you did not want restrictive pairing for Soulbond at all... whereas you previously stated that you want Soulbond that cares about who they pair with and only some would be normal, now you want the majority to be normal Soulbond.
How do you figure that Caretaker is played into a very different gameplay space than Exploit? Both requires a cost of a permanent on your board. Exploit is flexible in what cost it is, while Caretaker is locked and you have to play it before the benefit happens. Caretaker is definitely the weaker version of an Exploit cost due to those restrictions and setup, but I think it fits given that this kind of cost is not something that is normally within Green, so it does it worse. However because Caretaker is worse I think you can get away with granting higher payoffs.
As for breaking the color pie... No break is happening here to the color pie. Red, Green and White definitely have multiple sources of bouncing own permanents or creatures, so it is not a break of the color pie. You may argue about a break of what is traditionally Naya, but we are trying to make a new mechanic for Naya and after the conflux, Blue and Black mana have entered Naya. I wouldn't say it's a large stretch to have such a mechanic within .
Roaring Primadox , Stampeding Serow and its brother Stampeding Wildebeests , Temur Sabertooth , Ambush Krotiq , Invasive Species are some of them. Not bouncing a creature but bouncing none the less; Quirion Ranger Scryb Ranger I based these on mono green cards, but there's obviously a lot of others with other colors within the Nayan color pairing. Stuff like Fleetfoot Panther or Horned Kavu , Shivan Wurm . Red green had a lot of this stuff in the past. As far as I recall it was not a particularly liked mechanic in my LGS mostly because your opponent could interact with the "cost" and kill your only bounce target, so you had to bounce the creature itself. This was also back when creatures wasn't as pushed as they are now. Also having Caretaker as an optional cost that can't be interacted with and granting a benefit could make Caretaker work where the Red Green bounce for an undercosted big fattie failed.
Again; this is not a color pie break.
While I agree that Soulbond as a gameplay mechanic is more flexible in its core form, as it just requires a Soulbond creature and any other creature, I think Soulbond as a design mechanic is a lot more restrictive than you realize.
As for what decks are fun or not, I'm not going to go into that discussion. I would say most decks that are competitive are pretty linear in my eyes, because that is what makes them consistent and good.
Naya is exactly about the circle of life and normal predation to survive, not for sport like it may seem on Jund. I wouldn't say there's a bond between the gargantuans and their worshippers, as the gargantuans are the prime dangers to the humanoid inhabitants on Naya. The beasts prey on the populace and rampage through the jungle, destroying settlements.
I think for the gargantuans, it's more a tolerance thing. Like when a crocodile rests and opens its mouth to let birds eat out the scraps and clean for them. The crocodile doesn't care for the birds, but there's a symbiotic relationship that benefits both. I wont call it a bond. And certainly not one of the soul. That's why I called it a flavor break.
Thank you for the sauce on the popularity. I recognize that Naya is the least popular of the shards according to WotC's data. However it doesn't say that the mechanic is disliked. Shards of Alara fell into the top of the 25-50 percentile, which WotC classifies as a "liked" position, with the 0-25 percentile to be "disliked". They said some shards (like Esper) broke through the 50 percentile into the "popular" category.
So unless Naya is a vast outlier on the bad end, I don't think it's correct to say that Naya was disliked. Since they positively mentioned Esper to break the category but nothing else, I think it's safer to assume that Naya fell within the 25-50 percentile and is considered "liked, but not popular". You only know that Naya was the least popular of the shards. The rest is speculation.
And this speculation and personal bias is exactly why I kept going with this argument - which I reckoned was lost from the start. From your first post it is pretty clear that you don't consider the ideas applicable, so at first I wanted to know what thought went behind that, also to know what I might not have considered. From thereon it became clearer that some personal bias was present more than thought through criticism. I want people to argue with facts, and not use personal bias and present it as facts.
I don't mind you not liking my suggested mechanic and what it builds on. And if you have some factual or anecdotal evidence that supports a broader consensus which you claim to present, then I'll have to reconsider my position and revalue my viewpoints.
I thank you for our little discussion, but I think it is past time to end this.
1 year ago
1 year ago
First, the deck looks really fun. A few thoughts though, in no particular order:
- Land Destruction is not a wincon. If it's working for you, that's awesome. But I worry that 1x Thrun, 1x Nissa, and 1x Strombreath may not be enough to actually close out the game.
- Your mana- and dork-base would benefit a little from -3x Forest, -1x Birds of Paradise, +3x Green Fetchlands (Windswept Heath are the least expensive, but any of them are fine). Because the Fetches allow us to grab Stomping Ground as well, they give us a slightly better chance of getting the 2R we need to cast Blood Moon on Turn 2, which would allow you to drop a Bird for something better in the late game. Here's a piece on our Ponza Mana Simulator if you'd like to play with the numbers yourself.
- I like Ancient Grudge better than Artifact sweepers, personally. But if your meta demands sweepers, Shatterstorm is strictly better than Creeping Corrosion.
- Unless your meta is just overrun with Tron and Titanshift, 4x Crumble to Dust may be excessive. Surgical Extraction is another similar(ish) option, which is great in other match-ups as well.
Also, I TOTALLY get the desire to make a deck competitive "without necessarily carbon copying someone else's card list", but I always recommend starting with other lists and then tweaking (sometimes drastically) to fit our meta and playstyle. If you haven't already, I'd strongly recommend looking at these:
- The Eternal Witness + Primal Command softlock is GREAT, especially with Stampeding Wildebeests/Stampeding Serow. But the Serow has seen play in exactly one Competitive Modern deck, so I'd give that a hard look for sure.
- This one and this one are very different than yours, but probably worth a look.
- And FWIW, here's the Primal Command deck I ran for a while: Primal Ponza.
Good luck (and good skill) with the deck!
2 years ago
Morning gents (and ladies!), I've been playing around with a mono-green ramp/land-destruction deck which I really love in concept, but can't seem to quite get optimized, so I figured I'd come to the experts...
This is the deck as it stands now:
- 3x Acidic Slime
- 4x Arbor Elf
- 3x Elvish Mystic
- 4x Eternal Witness
- 1x Hornet Queen
- 3x Sakura-Tribe Elder
- 2x Stampeding Serow
- 1x Cloudthresher
- 3x Beast Within
Apart from ramping up to destroy my opponent's land and then pounding on him, there is also a soft-lock win con using Eternal Witness, Stampeding Serow and Primal Command which comes up more than you'd think.
While I'm open to any thoughts or suggestions, the primary things I'm struggling with right now are twofold:
1) It never feels smooth. It always seems that I either end up with way too much ramp in my hand or none at all. Is that just bad luck up to this point? I replaced Plow Under, great as it is, with Beast Within to smooth out my mana curve a little.
2) I've got slots for two big creatures in this deck, preferably ones with utility that have effects when they come into play. Right now I'm using Cloudthresher and Hornet Queen - I figure that they give me a nice bit of flexibility and I can hunt for whichever I need in the moment, but they also don't synergize particularly well (not that they need to). I'm considering Thragtusk as well and I've been bouncing back and forth between the three for a while now. I'm also completely open to another option here that I might not have considered.
So far, this deck has been incredibly fun to play, but incredibly frustrating at times as well, and I'd really like to see if I can make it legitimately competitive. I've also considered a more control-tilted version of it, splashing blue for 4x Remand and 4x Mana Leak which synergizes well, but seems to leave me a little thin, trying to ramp OR land destruct OR counter, so for right now that's on the back burner.
2 years ago
- I think the biggest thing you could probably do to make the deck more reliable is to smooth your mana curve a little. For a deck without Bloodbraid Elf, I usually recommend ~13 3-drops, ~8 4-drops, ~3x 5-drops, and ~2 6-drops. I get it that the deck is built around Eternal Witness and Primal Command/Plow Under, so you may not want to mess with those numbers, but with 7x Plow effects, you're almost certainly going to get some in your opening hand, and that can be kind of rough. So maybe drop to 5x total (kind of replacing the "traditional" 5- and 6-drops slots)? That'll free up some room for the Blood Moons you have coming in.
- If you're not running 6-drops, you could probably get by with just a little less ramp. A "traditional" list is 10x dorks (Sprawls, Elves, and Birds) and 21-22 Lands, so I suspect you could go from 11x to 10x dorks, even with your 20 Lands.
- I'm not honestly sure what to do to improve the mana base. Wooded Foothills are of course a little pricey, but the ability to fetch exactly what we need is just SO nice. Pain lands like Karplusan Forest are a solid budget option as well.
- Stampeding Serow can be kind of painful unless you have a Witness on board ... turning them into Courser of Kruphix (great with Chandra) or Pulse of Murasa (for lifegain and a little more recursion) might be worthwhile.
Good luck (and good skill) with the build!