|Commander / EDH||Legal|
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|Premium Deck Series: Graveborn (GRV)||Common|
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Discard any number of cards. Target player reveals his or her hand, then you choose a nonland card from it for each card discarded this way. That player discards those cards.
Last Rites Discussion
6 months ago
1 year ago
Hi there, i'll share all the knowledge i've gathered after playing discard decks for more than 5 years (i've built monoblack creatureless discard, monoblack creature discard, UB discard, RB discard, Grixis discard, specter discard, etc.).
The first i see here is that you don't have anything to deal with the board, so you'll more than probably die to anything that hits the board, even a simple 3/1 two-drop. Your deck relies too much on damaging your opponent through giving him many cards and forcing him to discard not that many; the only card in your deck that punishes him this way is Liliana's Caress and that's it, it's not reliable. You also run two copies of Painful Quandary which it's ideal mechanics are to punish your opponent for having no hand, but since you are forcing him to draw so many cards, he'll always have the option to discard while playing a spell (only taking 2 damage from Liliana's Caress and only if you have the enchant on the battlefield).
You have many cards that allow you or your opponent to draw and discard cards, but you only have Alms of the Vein to exploit this mechanic, so get rid of those or stick in more madness cards.
The description says "the goal of this deck is to get your opponent as low as possible", but you can't do that quickly by relying only on 4 copies of Liliana's Caress while you'll be recieving lot's of threats and hits. Master of the Feast will for sure get destroyed by any of the thousands removal spells you'll force your opponent to draw, so it won't be dealing too much damage if any.
Let's work on the solution. First of all, you need your deck to have more consistant way to deal damage and you also need to get rid of your opponent's threats until you've reached mid-late game and you can develop your winning mechanics.
Since you have almost no creature, let's take advantage of that so that you can trade one card of yours for many cards of your opponent. Good cards to do this, depending on the money you want to spend are, for example, Drown in Sorrow , Yahenni's Expertise , Languish and Damnation.
You also need to be faster or at least to be able to delay your opponent's strategy. A way of doing this is by disrupting his early moves to wreck his plan. Cards like Inquisition of Kozilek , Thoughtseize , Duress and Despise excell at doing so.
To strenghten the draw and discard engine you have many cards at your disposal. I don't know if you want to keep the deck in the modern format or to build a casual free of legal restriction deck, so I'll recommend a variety of cards like Chains of Mephistopheles , Probe , Wheel and Deal , Ill-Gotten Gains , Urza's Guilt , Anvil of Bogardan , Whispering Madness , Dark Deal , Font of Mythos , Forced Fruition , Geier Reach Sanitarium , Memory Jar and Temple Bell.
You need more cards than Liliana's Caress to punish your opponent for discarding or drawing cards. All of these are good for the task, suit yourself: Underworld Dreams , Psychosis Crawler , Fate Unraveler , Waste Not , Megrim and Words of Waste.
Since you and your opponent will be drawing lots of cards, you will be able to discard cards too or abuse your card-drawing. This does not only work well for madness, but also with delve, retrace and other cards. Consider some of these: Chain of Smog , Last Rites , Big Game Hunter , Raven's Crime , Syphon Life , Cunning Lethemancer , Necrogen Mists , Psychotic Haze , Call to the Netherworld , Dark Withering , Gibbering Descent and also Sphinx's Tutelage.
You'll be forcing your opponent to draw many many cards, so you'll need cards that make him discard more than one to win the trade. Consistant massive discard cards are for example this ones: Brink of Madness , Mindstab , Mind Twist , Mind Shatter or Delirium Skeins.
Which ones and how many
Pick the ones you like the most according to their mana costs and their price. Also consider the ammount of black mana symbols in their cost, because you'll be playing a two colors deck.
Try to keep it as balanced as you can in terms of cards functions. Maybe 30% draw/discard engine - 30% draw/discard punishment - 20% massive discard - 10% 1drops quality discard - 10% board whipe. You'll have to test and adjust the numbers.
I know most of those cards are black, but you can keep it UB if you want to. Best version I've made of this strategy was using Grixis (Blue Black and Red) because there's a lot of red cards that force both players to discard and draw like Burning Inquiry and Reforge the Soul for example. Grixis also enables the use of Nekusar, the Mindrazer , Blightning , Sedraxis Specter , Blazing Specter and Dack Fayden.
I hope it's helpful! Best wishes!
2 years ago
I playtested it. Its pretty nice, but the manabase... huh. Little junky.
In my opinion u need some GB taplands (every ability to activate and double mana cost is G or B). If you want place for Spirit Guide - cut murasa and lands. 20-21 should be enough. Ohh... and what do you think about 1-2 Reaping the Graves after cascade? For lategame. 3+ cards back (6 mana needed)
About side, I recommend:
- Wail of the Nim instead of Cower in Fear, cause can give regeneration
- 2 Evincar's Justice / Pestilence or just even in the mainboad, cause almost 90% of the ceatures in pauper have 1 or 2 toughness
- some Pyroblast
- some Syphon Life vs burn
- some Hush vs bogles
- some Last Rites vs control / combos / grindy decks
2 years ago
I like what you have going on here, but not a single discard outlet? Maybe just one Collective Brutality, Strongarm Tactics, Last Rites or even Macabre Waltz, just in case you end up with Avacyn in your hand.
2 years ago
Thanks for the feedback!
@freakman13 How many lands would you cut? I normally run 34 but I kept running into problems with my avg cmc being so high missing land drops really hurts. Any specific mana rocks you recommend? There's a lot of colored mana needed so I'm considering Gilded Lotus at the very least.
@joshuaizac Lol Stone age of magic maybe, but Insidious Dreams and Sickening Dreams were both in earlier version. I'm having trouble making up for the loss in card advantage though, maybe if I can make Grave Defiler work for the deck Insidious Dreams might pay off a little more.
As for Last Rites, how do you feel about Volrath's Dungeon? I picked one up but haven't tried it yet, it seems like it could be pretty brutal though as a one time effect: target player skips next X draws and opponent takes 5 damage. Not bad for 4 mana I'm thinking.
2 years ago
RE: Your "Is Mono-Black Reanimator really viable?" post with a link to this deck...
you mentioned having issues with getting cards into the yard...
you questioned the ideas of dredge and self-mill, as well as stating your desire for MORE consistency. In this type of deck it's really hard to get a good balance and I think dredge and self-mill will make it more inconsistent, as you'd have no control, and with magus/yawgmoth's will your only recursion for non-creatures...you're throwing half your deck away at random.
still it does come down to balance...a few other cards worth mention from the stone age of magic;
Last Rites - great on turn one off a dark rit... not as good in multiplayer, but still ok if you know who's playing control and hit them with this early....less effective late game though....
Sickening Dreams - pretty solid discard outlet, less effective early game.
Insidious Dreams - ok so it's 2-3 extra mana above a normal tutor ... but it's a multi-tutor and a discard outlet.
just a few thoughts from an ol fogey
2 years ago
I was running Gnaw to the Bone over Moment's Peace, but The more I playtest against the meta, I've realized that the card that the deck wants is actually Moment's Peace. I was looking at the modern variant of dredge, and saw that they ran Gnaw to the Bone over Moment's Peace. This is because Modern Dredge runs differently. I Delve, they don't. So it's hard to keep the creature count in grave so high. I knew about the card, I just thought something better existed.
I mentioned that Wild Mongrel was bad for this deck in the description, and Vampire Hounds is worse. Running a card that nets me card disadvantage is bad, even if I'm playing slightly above curve. Those two are probably the best Madness Enablers in the format. I don't play Madness, so they're not good here.
Fa'adiyah Seer. Holy Crap. I did not know this thing existed. Yes. I realized that you almost never draw the card. When possible, you always dredge. You always get the card, never discard, and you now have a card to feed back to grave. When impossible, it helps dig for something to dredge with. And if you see it in grave, you pick it back up. Yes.
Last Rites does seem ridiculous. Seems really good against Black, Teachings, Blue decks that aren't Delver-based aggro, and maybe even Blitz. Gonna find room for it in the side somewhere.
2 years ago
Moment's Peace is a decent sideboard card against decks that just try to race you.
I play Tortured Existence as my main deck and Wild Mongrel as well as Vampire Hounds have proven themselves to be decent for me since they have the potential for turn three kills against combo, but we play very different builds.
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