Horde of Notions
Legendary Creature — Elemental
Vigilance, trample, haste
: You may play target Elemental card from your graveyard without paying its mana cost.
Price & Acquistion Set Price Alerts
Horde of Notions Discussion
1 day ago
Maelstrom Wanderer is great in Superfriends because it can Cascade into double Planeswalkers. Changing your Commander from Sliver Queen to Horde of Notions will support the deck better. Horde synergises with Wanderer and currently Queen isn't really offering your deck anything.
Oath of Chandra is a wasted spot. It isn't good enough for EDH.
1 week ago
"A very clear and concise meaning for each tier should be established"
Ok, here you go: Tier 3 is for casual commanders that have strong synergies that quickly swing the board state in your favor when left unchecked. Tier 4 is for all the casual commanders who don't have such synergies available to them.
Clear enough? I thought that was what we were all going by anyway...
I can see your point about commanders of the same power level needing to be in the same tier. It was just that in your other post it seemed like you were arguing for all those commanders to be moved down, rather than that they were comparable to something else.
Also, while I can see Feldon = Jalira, or Feldon = Kiki, I'm still not agreeing on Geth and Erebos. I have a lot of experience playing with both, and Erebos is definitely the weaker of the two. In Erebos practically a third of the cards your drawing off of him are dedicated to recouping all the life he's draining from you. With Geth you can just hold up lots of board control while you take your opponent's best stuff and work on getting infinite mana. He has way more potential.
And as for Horde, there's a world of difference between playing a tribal elemental deck and playing 10 to 20 elementals that are good cards in and of themselves (Maelstrom Wanderer, for example). A tribal deck is one where the members of the tribe boost each other or grant you bonuses based off of how many creatures you have of that type. Elemental tribal doesn't really exist at the moment, the closest thing we have is Omnath, Locus of Rage, and his deck doesn't really need to run too many elementals. I was just saying that there are enough commander playable elementals for Horde of Notions to bring something unique and worthwhile to what would otherwise just be 5 color goodstuff.
1 week ago
sonnet666 Well let me enlighten you :)
Yes, Sliver Legion is the worst Sliver commander. But that doesn't make him/her/it that bad either. I know that there are plenty of sliver anthems out there, however, having a permanently accessible Coat of Arms stapled to a 7/7 is quite overwhelming, and definitely better than Tazri's boost. The tutor is definitely strong too, I'm just estimating that the Legion at least partially makes up for that by brute force.
Ditto for Geth and Erebos, as far as I can tell.
Karametra and Vorinclex is a bit of a stretch, I admit. But I think that even here my point stands.
Kiki and Feldon we agree on.
Horde of Notions is discussable, I suppose. Though I am a bit confused, as you're first saying that you don't have to play tribal, but then insinuating that playing tribal is the only way to make him worthwhile.
I think that you're misunderstanding my point here. I'm honestly not sure at this point whether Kiki or Tazri is Tier 3 or 4 or whatnot. My point is that basically every pair I discussed are pretty close to the same level... so it makes no sense that they're in different tiers. Now which Tier each pair should go in will depend on the definition of the Tiers in question. I just think that a very clear and concise meaning for each tier should be established (notably Tier 4, as that's really the source of our debate), as right now, those definitions are very sketchy, or at how they're enforced is at the very least questionable. But whatever the case, I think a bit of a rehaul needs to be done.
1 week ago
FAMOUSWATERMELON: I'm so confused by that last comment... I'm not even sure where to begin.
"General Tazri does not make a more powerful commander deck than Sliver Legion." That's just... wrong. Sliver legion is in T4 because it's the worst sliver commander. It's the win-more of slivers. The only thing it does is pump your army... when you already have an army. If you're losing it's just an 8/8. Seriously, if you can't see how an ETB tutor in a tribe that loves blink effects is better than an anthem in a tribe already filled with anthems, then I just don't know what more I can tell you.
Also Tazri is female, fyi.
Feldon and Jalira are close, but there is no way that Feldon is better. Without the double colored mana cost, Jalira will often come down a turn earlier than Feldon; the tap ability is so much more in your favor in blue than in red, since blue has much, much better spells that are worth holding mana open until the end of your opponent's turn then red does; and seriously, what part of a turn 5 eternal Blightsteel Colossus every single game failed to impress you? You can even sacrifice Blightsteel Colossus to Jalira, just to get back Blightsteel Colossus (great for Swords to Plowshares). Also, I don't see how comparing is an argument for either of them to be lower than T3.
Playing off of your opponent's libraries is only a bad strategy when it costs you cards to do so. For example, if your deck is mostly Clone effects, and you go up against a creatureless deck or a deck that only plays creatures that help itself (e.g. Purphoros, God of the Forge), then your deck if full of a bunch of dead cards and you have a problem. Here's where Geth turns that issue of it's head: he doesn't need any extra cards focused on stealing your opponent's stuff. If you run into a situation where he's not useful, you still have 99 other cards to work with, and he's usually going to be useful. Also he just wins the game if you make infinite mana, which, as we can see from Oona, Tasigur, and Memnarch, would be enough of reason by itself to put him in T2, if he were in a better color identity. There is absolutely no reason he should be moved lower than T3.
Karametra, God of Harvests vs. Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger: Another bad comparison. Vorinclex comes down way too late in the game to be worthwhile. Mono-green already ramps super hard and has great closers. If you have eight mana you should be able to win the game outright, not be casting your commander so you can get more mana. Karametra has way more impact on the game just by virtue of coming down sooner.
I'm saying Kiki and Feldon should both be T3, what are you saying?
"Horde of Notions can recur Avenger of Zendikar and one or two other decent elementals." I just did a gatherer search and found 24 commander-playable elementals other than Avenger of Zendikar that would be worth recurring in a Horde of Notions deck. Even if you're putting 5-color goodstuff cards in your deck, that's a lot more than just playing him for his colors.
Mishra is a actually quite consistent. There are like ten different cards that can use his ability to break symmetry, and he can be tuned to goldfish wins in the first six turns of the game. See for yourself: Mishra EDH Storm Combo.
Lastly, about Dromoka, I could maybe see her moved up to T3, but it's not fair to compare her with Sen Triplets, since the whole point of Sen Triplets is to keep the comtrol player from doing anything the turn that you combo off and win. Green/white is a lot less combo centric color identity than Esper (barring Saffi, where your commander is part of the combo). What would you even be doing in a Dromoka deck to combo off? Also Sen Triplets shuts down activated abilities too, which hits a lot of the non-blue control decks out there.
1 week ago
sonnet666 That list of cards isn't based on their own power, rather their power compared to other Tier 4 commanders. For instance:
General Tazri does not make a more powerful commander deck than Sliver Legion. Yes, he tutors, but the Legion gives a more powerful permanent boost, is a 7/7 to being with, and generally speaking Slivers are a more powerful tribe than Allies. Slivers also have plenty of infinite combos, so that's not a problem. And yet, they are in two different tiers.
Jalira, Master Polymorphist I feel is very close to Feldon, actually. They both are mono-colored, both have a tap ability, and both require a set up to use that ability well. However, while Jalira is blue, Feldon is quicker and doesn't rely on chance to use his ability. They feel like very much around the same level, yet are separated by a tier.
Geth, Lord of the Vault can be fairly compared to something like Erebos, God of the Dead. They both have outlets for lots of mana, but Geth relies on other people's decks to do well (which is not a great strategy most of the time), costs more, isn't indestructible, and doesn't have the added bonus of shutting down Oloro or things like that. He may mill, but I think we can agree that's not a great strategy in EDH either.
Karametra, God of Harvests is one of the stronger ones I named, but even here, she doesn't necessarily seem much better than Vorinclex, Voice of Hunger or others. The multi-color helps, of course, but...
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker is very similar to Feldon. You already pointed that out, I don't see why their tiers should differ.
Yes, Horde of Notions can recur Avenger of Zendikar and one or two other decent elementals. But if you're playing him for the colors, he shouldn't be anywhere near Tier 3. What you're describing sounds much more like Tiers 4 or 5 to me.
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy does make some fun combos... but you have to get those cards. And without that, he's more or less vanilla.
All of this to point out that there is a very small difference between Tier 3 and 4. In fact, looking at the cards in Tier 4, it just looks like all the cards were borderline between 3 and 5 and that people just didn't want to sort. I mean, are we really putting Ashling the Pilgrim and Blind Seer in the same tiers as Feldon and Dragonlord Dromoka (which is basically a GW version of Sen Triplets, and should probably be moved up too)?
1 week ago
Optimized Feldon:Feldon of the Third Path copy
I copied it from a source I respect, did a little tinkering and some goldfishing. It has some powerful synergies and is decently reactive for mono-red. In casual metas I think he will probably do very well (For instance, Wurmcoil Engine on Blade of Selves with sac outlets is nothing to sneeze at.), and that is the rubric behind Tier 3. Mono-red is limiting, yes, but the deck has very good draw power and board control for both artifacts and creatures, and if Purphoros, Krenko, and Daretti can all manage to be T2, I see no reason why Feldon can't make T3.
FAMOUSWATERMELON: I agree with you that the line between Tiers 3 and 4 is a bit fuzzy and needs work, but I think for a lot of the commanders you listed there you might just not be aware of their full potential. Let me give you some examples:
Jalira, Master Polymorphist lets you run a deck filled with low cost legendary utility creatures, and then swap them out for one or two extremely powerful non-legendary creatures. (i.e. turn five Blightsteel Colossus, every game.) It's as powerful as decks that used to run just one creature in the 99 so they could Proteus Staff their commander into it, without actually having to set up your deck that way (or find Proteus Staff).
General Tazri is a five color ally commander. There are actually a lot of allies that scale well to commander (Sea Gate Loremaster, Bala Ged Thief, Murasa Pyromancer) as well as a lot of super amazing blink engines that dial their triggers up to 11 (Brago, King Eternal, Ghostway, Planar Guide). Plus, she has a dedicated infinite combo (Xenograft/Conspiracy + Turntimber Ranger), and she's a tutor in the command zone. Honestly, I feel like once someone works out all the kinks we might see a version of this deck make it to Tier 2.
Geth, Lord of the Vault is continuous card advantage on a stick. Once he's out there is literally nothing better to do with your mana than dump it into his ability repeatedly, which means that when the inevitable field wipe rolls around you'll still have a hand full of gas to trash your opponents with. Also, mono-black can generate enormous amounts of mana off of very few cards.
Karametra, God of Harvests ramps harder than any other green/white commander, does it without spending other cards to do so (you were gonna cast creatures anyway), and has some great landfall triggers in her colors. Seems T3 to me.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker has multiple infinite combos centered around him and abuses ETB, death, and combat triggers. If he doesn't make it to T3 there is absolutely no way that Feldon does, and I at least think they're both worthy.
Horde of Notions is a five color recursion engine. I don't see why everyone rates him so low. It's five color, You don't have to limit yourself the elemental tribal. Just do the usual five color thing and play the best ones available to you (e.g. Avenger of Zendikar).
Mishra, Artificer Prodigy makes a weird artifact based stax / combo deck with cards like Blood Funnel and Nether Void. I feel like the uniqueness of that alone is worth putting him in T3, but the deck actually performs pretty consistently, and he's not weaker than most other T3 generals.
Lastly, I think you're probably right about Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient needing to be moved to T4, but it's worth mentioning how he's able to generate stupid amounts of mana very early in the game using cards like Basalt Monolith, Grim Monolith, and Voltaic Key.
1 week ago
Feldon of the Third Path to Tier Three, if not Tier Two. Mono-Red hurts, but he has an extremely powerful ability (in a color which gives it a lot of toys), and he's certainly on par with most of the Tier Three guys, and can compete with some of the Tier Two people.
The line between Tier Three and Tier Four just generally looks very iffy. Jalira, Master Polymorphist, Daxos of Meletis, Dromar, the Banisher, General Tazri, Experiment Kraj, Geth, Lord of the Vault, Hazezon Tamar, Karametra, God of Harvests, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker, Horde of Notions, Hua Tuo, Honored Physician, Kurkesh, Onakke Ancient, Mishra, Artificer Prodigy, Ojutai, Soul of Winter, and Progenitus all feel weak for Tier Three compared to Tier Four cards. Additionally, a number of Tier Three cards could definitely be knocked up to Tier 2 (Karn, Saffi notably).
I don't know what the solution is, but it definitely feels like there should be a clearer line between Tier Three and Tier Four, like there is between 1 and 2 and 2 and 3.
2 weeks ago
Important update for this deck:
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger for The Mimeoplasm. Not many fantastic creatures end up in the graveyard until at least turns 6 and 7, but The Mimeoplasm usually had to wait until late game for good value. The new Eldrazi fits in nicely with his titanic brothers.
Void Winnower for Defense of the Heart. though Defense of the Heart is a good card, it's not necessarily the most interactive, fun, for interesting card. Plus, it got Krosan Grip the only time I would've gotten its benefit. Void Winnower is an incredibly powerful eldrazi that can always be cast comfortably on turn 9, or even sooner. Its control is vast and its power demands respect.
Thornwood Falls for Cavern of Souls. I need the cavern for my Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund deck and my Horde of Notions deck, and the mana curve in this deck needed a bit of fixing for non creature spells.
Sire of Stagnation for Phyrexian Arena. My early game ramp cards are essential to the success of this deck. There is already so much draw, I am in no need of early draw because Damia, Sage of Stone always keeps by hand full, along with other card draw. Sire of Stagnation has been playtested and has proven to be an eerily intimidating card on the level of Consecrated Sphinx. No one likes exiling cards from their library, and no one likes feeling forced to not play lands. Another awesome eldrazi. Also keeps Animar, Soul of Elements in check due to devoid.
Lorescale Coatl for Oracle of Mul Daya. In a control-type deck, you don't want your opponents to see what card you're drawing. There is enough ramp where the Oracle was proving to be overkill. Lorescale Coatl will be great both early and late game due to Damia's ability. Nice to have another 3-drop, too.
|Commander / EDH||Legal|
Printings View all
|Modern Masters 2015 Edition||Rare|
- Horde of Notions + Mirari's Wake
- Doomgape + Horde of Notions
- Elemental Resonance + Horde of Notions
- Crib Swap + Horde of Notions
- Horde of Notions + Maelstrom Wanderer
- Avenger of Zendikar + Horde of Notions + Phyrexian Altar
- Composite Golem + Conspiracy + Horde of Notions
- Avenger of Zendikar + Horde of Notions