Divine Presence

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Legality

Format Legality
1v1 Commander Legal
Archenemy Legal
Canadian Highlander Legal
Casual Legal
Commander / EDH Legal
Commander: Rule 0 Legal
Custom Legal
Duel Commander Legal
Highlander Legal
Legacy Legal
Leviathan Legal
Limited Legal
Oathbreaker Legal
Planechase Legal
Premodern Legal
Quest Magic Legal
Tiny Leaders Legal
Vanguard Legal
Vintage Legal

Divine Presence

Enchantment

If a source would deal 4 damage or more to a creature or player, that source deals 3 damage to that creature or player instead.

Fuzzy003 on Teysa, Ghostly instigator

1 year ago

Divine Presence can help mitigate damage. Does not mitigate life loss tho... :)

StopShot on Counteracting large hexproof creatures.

3 years ago

The subject of this thread revolves around dealing with and counteracting against the commanders: Uril, the Miststalker, Sigarda, Host of Herons, Dragonlord Ojutai, Lazav, Dimir Mastermind, Thrun, the Last Troll as well as commanders that consistently or typically give themselves hexproof through various equipments/auras.

While it may not be the most prevalent strategy these types of commanders can be annoying to deal with. I'd like to create a discussion on what are the best ways to deal with these commanders. Given how niche these commanders can be, running cards that exclusively dedicate themselves to their removal may be detrimental to draw into when playing a game where none of your opponents run them. Therefore cards that can both combat massive hexproof creatures as well as still being useful to have if none of your opponents are playing with big hexproof creatures should be taken into consideration when deciding what is the "best" or "most practical" solution to combating hexproof strategies.

The first cards that come to mind are Arcane Lighthouse, Detection Tower, Bonds of Mortality, Shadowspear and Glaring Spotlight. These cards entirely dedicate themselves to combating hexproof strategies, and while this may be a detriment when used against non-hexproof strategies, these cards do lend themselves some extra utility. Arcane Lighthouse and Detection Tower can be seeded into your manabase so at worst they're just a Wastes however they can be more inefficient in comparison. Given that both are lands, tapping them costs you an extra mana resource effectively making their abilities cost to activate. Not only that, but they have no effect at stripping indestructible which can be a common keyboard which may be used alongside most hexproof strategies. Cards like Bonds of Mortality and Shadowspear cost only one to activate and they can bypass indestructible, however given they're not lands you have to dedicate a nonland slot in your deck to accommodate either of them which means taking out a card that may better synergize with your deck's main strategy in their place. They also lend themselves targets for counter spells and given hexproof decks contain white and/or green, artifact/enchantment removal will pose a high potential risk. This is all not to mention you still need to provide a removal spell in tandem with these cards in order to remove the threat.

Another solution is board wipes. Cards such as Wrath of God, Damnation, Day of Judgment, Supreme Verdict, Blasphemous Act, etc. Mass creature removal is incredibly strong given that its always relevant in most metas making it a highly flexible solution that isn't too narrow to rely upon. It's biggest drawback however is if the massive hexproof creature that needs to be dealt with has indestructible, totem armor or Gift of Immortality. Even a card such as Toxic Deluge can be a risk as you may have to pay a huge amount of life if the creature is incredibly big. Cyclonic Rift is another effective card. One thing to note about boardwipes are they affect the whole table which makes them also more likelier to be countered than by effects that impact a single individual.

A more narrow solution would be through damage prevention effects such as Story Circle, Forcefield, Runed Halo, Rune of Protection: White, etc. Given each card never "targets" they can be used to infinitely "Fog" a problem creature that you can't put up with. These effects are more narrow than boardwipes but broader than hexproof removal. Cards like these still run into problems with artifact/enchantment removal and they don't run enticing side effects such as drawing a card upon entering the battlefield like Bonds of Mortality or giving a creature lifelink and trample like Shadowspear, however you won't need to exhaust your removal spells to keep the large creature(s) either. In more broader metas such as combo, stax and prison, these effects may not be as useful however. More broader variants of these protection cards exist as Ensnaring Bridge, Divine Presence, Peacekeeper and Meekstone though these cards may make multiple opponents unhappy enough to remove them than the more narrower options.

The last effect used to combat large hexproof creatures is sacrifice effects such as: Fleshbag Marauder, Innocent Blood, Vona's Hunger, Liliana's Triumph, Doomfall etc. These effects can bypass not only hexproof but also indestructible, regenerate and totem armor. Their drawback lies in if the player with the large hexproof creature has any other creatures to sacrifice in their place. Because of this caveat this effect isn't too strong unless ran in multiples which can be difficult to commit to in a 100-card format. Instead selective sacrifice effects may be the best way to devote to this solution with cards like: Crackling Doom, Soul Shatter, Slaughter the Strong, Council's Judgment, Renounce the Guilds and Wing Shards. While these cards won't always guarantee the large hexproof creature will be removed, they provide a stronger case than not compared to most traditional sacrifice removal.

Lastly there are counter spells to remove hexproof creatures. While they may be the best all purpose solution they can be rendered ineffective if a Cavern of Souls or some other can not be countered effect is in place. With exception to Withering Boon, the biggest downside to counter spells are they are entirely exclusive to blue meaning other color combinations without blue do not have this option available.

Which method do you rely on to stop massive hexproof creatures? Is there a card or solution set not listed here that you use? If you happen to play EDH decks with big massive hexproof creatures, which effects annoy/counter you the most?

NetholonTheArchmage on The Sunforger-Dilemma

5 years ago

@ triproberts12 , thank you for your suggestions!

Ironically you just mentioned two of the cards that are among the most profitable in the deck in my opinion :D Divine Presence is probably my favourite pillow-fort-card ever.. Somehow it seems to shut down half of the table, not being able to deal any damage as everyone has a reliable blocker on their board. It is a mytery but strangely enough nobody manages to remove that thing... Might be cursed or something... In short: This card does huge work in my meta so I really want to keep it.

The Trading Post is one of the most versatile cards I know, offering you (on theme-) blockers (you may also gift them away for extravalue) , carddraw if you need it or, and that's the most important effect: artifact-recursion from your graveyard. Last but not least it is an important component of my Mindslaver -lockdown wincon.

Still I thank you a lot for your time and your angagement! :)

triproberts12 on The Sunforger-Dilemma

5 years ago

I think Divine Presence and Trading Post are pretty mediocre, personally.

Gleeock on Queen Marchesa: Politics, Aikido, and Control

5 years ago

Divine Presence is an option... Not the same thing though, would interrupt your own big swing plays, unless you are using "life-loss".

enpc on Just Stay Dead (Saffi cEDH)

5 years ago

StopShot: Sorry about the delayed response. I appreciate the thought that went into the comment and wanted to respond in kind.

So to start off (and I will bounce around with your suggestions to group them by function a bit) I will cover Kami of False Hope. I run Spore Frog as a bit of a niche card, but generally I don't deal much with combat decks. It's in there on the odd chance that I do, but most of my meta is full of infinite combo and I don't want to take up extra card spaces for a card which isn't going to add much value 99% of the time. Generally I can win faster than most beatdown decks can assemble and if I see them coming I can either use Yisan, GSZ, Chord or any other creature tutor to get frog. On the topic of Maze of Ith, I'm not overly a fan of the card personally. It's ok but I play a lot of combo and agin don't play against beatdown decks. It's ok in pillowfort lists, but I would rather a land that taps for mana. In this light, Urban Burgeoning isn't great, but if I ran it I would prioritise it on lands like Mikokoro, Center of the Sea or Gaea's Cradle. Don't get me worng, it's not a bad interaction, but it just feels like a lot of effort for not much value. And I would much rather find Skullclamp with Open the Armory. Divine Presence and Ensnaring Bridge kind if fit into the same category here, it's a lot of combat step prvention where my play group doesn't need it and more than that, most combo decks will have either an out that doesn't require attacking or an out that ends up with me having no permanents on the board, only to connect next turn.

There is always an issue with playing pillowfort cards in that they are proactive cards, but they only really stop an opponent from doing stuff to you. This means that you're expending resources on cards that don't in turn actively slow opponents down the way true stax would, which is not a plce you want to be in, For more casual play this is fine, but for games which the deck is designed for it is just a waste of turns and resources.

Authority of the Consuls is an interesting card. it is good at shuitting down a few combos, but it feels a bit too niche in this particular build. If this was a more staxcy build it would probably be quite at home here, however as a singleton stax card I would prefer Blind Obedience as I can use it as a combo outlet as well.

On the point of wraths, it's the same kind of thing as with Kami of False Hope. I don't want to clutter up my hand with a bunch of removal (especially redundant removal) that also puts me back a heap. I would rather run a bunch of cheap, single point removal which I can use to deal with key threats than to clear the board (whcih can lead to an opponent comboing out of the blue). Because sometimes stax cards are better in play, shutting down my opponent. And I like Wrath of God because it's a cheap catch all. Cards like Slaughter the Strong and Citywide Bust are nice because of their cost, however they miss a lot of key creatures. In more competitive games, the majority of creatures you see are a lot smaller (because larger creatures generally have prohibitive mana costs) and if you're going to the effort of wrathing you would rather just hit everything. I used to run Rout before I ran Wrath of God and while it is more expensive than Day of Judgment I think it would be my next goto, especially since it has instant speed mode which is in a lot of ways more valuable than just a second wrath.

For spot removal, you're right in that swords and path play centre stage. I have tried to run primarily instant speed removal to deal with other combo decks/being able to wait to the last second to break free and combo out myself. Darksteel Mutation isn't bad but my problem with it is slot space. I run Song of the Dryads which is basically a better version under most circumstances (as it hits more). If I needed more removal, mutation is the kind of card which could work its way into the deck however I do need to be careful not to flood the deck with removal (for the same reason as with pillowfort cards). Soul Snare and Condemn are both cheap to cast, however they only work when a creature is attacking. That is enough of a drawback to not run them.

I used to run Qasali Pridemage but in this list I cut it for Caustic Caterpillar. While you need to have 2 open for caterpillar, you can fetch it on turn one with Yisan, the Wanderer Bard which is super good. Don't get me wrong though, if I ever need more artifact/enchantment removal, it will be the first card to go back in. Seal of Cleansing and Seal of Primordium are less good versions of pridemage (creatures are easy to find) and Thrashing Brontodon/Sylvok Replica, while good, are too expensive as you spend 4 mana total to remove something.

I've seen the Scroll Rack + Land Tax combo before and have considered it in the past, but ultimately passed up on it. My problem with the combo is that neither of the pieces provide the card advantage the deck needs separately and while together they are quite strong, the deck lacks the ability to assemble said combo. On top of that, any artifact/enchantment tutors are better suited getting me direct win con lines rather than assembling value pieces. And while I can shuffle my deck with fetch lands, it's still not as consistent as you might think. Blinkmoth Nexus + Mask of Memory is a cute little package, however I have tried to focus on raw card advantage (i.e. cards that outright draw cards). And the value engines I do run are based off individual cards which add enough to the deck outside of those loops. Mirri's Guile has caught my attention on occasion, however ultimately I decided against it since it doesn't actually provide card advantage. And Sylvan Library and Sensei's Divining Top are bother better.

I hope this explains the card choices in the deck and while I have avoided running certain pieces. Don't get me wrong, the cards you have suggested aren't bad and some of the cards and card combos you've mentioned I might commandeer for some other decks (I like the Mask of Memory + Blinkmoth Nexus loop for canadian highlander) however for this particluar list and given my playgroup I have to be very specific on choices. But I appreciate the suggestions, they always force me to evaluate the deck and the particular choices I have made for it.

Grandmaster5327: I'm glad you like the list. The core of the deck isn't too expensive (minus the Phyrexian Altar) however a lot of the cost is sunk in the mana base and some specific cards (Survival of the Fittest, Mana Crypt, etc.). If you replaced these with some omre budget options, the overall price could be brought down much lower. While I haven't specifically put together a budget list, I am confident that you could get the deck down to the $300-$400 mark, which is a 5-6 fold reduction in price.

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