Disciple of Phenax
Creature — Human Cleric
When Disciple of Phenax enters the battlefield, target player reveals a number of cards from his or her hand equal to your devotion to black. You choose one of them. That player discards that card.
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Disciple of Phenax Discussion
2 months ago
2 months ago
Hey thanks --
The winning combos are reanimation loops + a drain:
Bloodghast is inconsistent -- will cut.
Bloodthrone Vampire gives an instant speed, repeatable sac outlet that can sac itself to its own ability, so its main purpose is death triggers -- but, it's on the chopping block
Deathgreeter -- will cut
Disciple of Phenax -- targetted discard on every turn? on the chopping block
Falkenrath Noble -- will cut
Hell's Caretaker -- extremely valuable, but on the chopping block.. it is grindy
Infernal Darkness -- will re-add
Vampiric Rites -- m8, this card is bad. but i'll add it to maybe
Mindslicer -- will re-add
Mesmeric Orb -- I might consider this as a way to set up a living death loop
Ad Nauseam -- eh, sure, why not, it's a great card.
Wasteland I could probably find room for, always need to destroy pesky lands.
Inventors' Fair is a good idea for this deck. I always need one of the altars.
Toxic Deluge -- will re-add
2 months ago
Cut -- Abyssal Gatekeeper (unlike Fleshbag and Co, this can hurt more than it helps since it isn't around to feed itself) Bloodghast (no real advantage with Shirei, and is inconsistent as redundancy), Bloodthrone Vampire (doesn't offer you anything for feeding it), Coffin Queen (better with high cost ETBs), Crypt Rats (doesn't function with your commander), Deathgreeter (life gain is pointless), Disciple of Phenax, Falkenrath Noble, Hell's Caretaker (too grindy).
Also consider, Dance of the Dead, Mindslicer (you only need to sac this once with a draw engine and you've basically won), Toxic Deluge, Mesmeric Orb (most efficient yard filler ever), and Ad Nauseam.
You could also safely cut some of the 0 mana creatures since they don't really do anything, Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip, and Dark Prophecy (you already have a lot of draw, and this can actually kill you if you have a slow or unclear path to victory).
Some additional lands to consider: Inventors' Fair, you have enough artifacts to satisfy it, and it tutors some of your most needed cards; Westvale Abbey Flip can get you out of a jam if you pay too much life; and Wasteland/Tectonic Edge/Dust Bowl help you play a little more into Crucible of Worlds.
2 months ago
illumfolly, needs Infernal Darkness, and I'd prefer if you had a gameplan beyond "make things come back from the yard a lot." Can you think of any combos that fit? Mike&Trike might work, especially since Triskelion can function with Shirei to clear out your opponent's boards in between turns, but the deck would need more of a reanimator subtheme to support it. You can definitely cut a lot of the 3 and 4 mana stuff, like Disciple of Phenax and Falkenrath Noble.
enpc that is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned making alternate lists. You did a great job of streamlining and not being attached to cards or lines of play, which can be really difficult when evaluating your own deck, so good job, really nice work.
I think the cards you cut are also really great examples of how paper lists often look different than in-theory, competitive, "optimized" lists. There are certain cards that are super fun and interactive to play with in real life, like Titania or Gift of Immortality from your list, that you don't want to cut from you deck because of advantages they afford you, the player, like fun or meta advantages, but become slightly outclassed when you move into a vacuum with no budget, where all you're trying to do is just win as quickly as you can. That doesn't mean it wrong or non-competitive for players to play those cards, just like players aren't non-competitive if their decks don't look exactly like the lists posted here. It just just means that the cards they're playing are affording them different advantages than what is generally considered optimal.
Anyway, discourse over, you should totally port your primer over to the new list, or link back to your other decklist, or both. (Also, I love your Wrath of God alter, definitely keep that included.)
Lastly, and this may just be me, but I totally think you could keep Crucible of Worlds in the streamlined version, especially if you freed up some u-land slots for Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and maybe Dust Bowl. Do you really need Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and Miren, the Moaning Well? The life isn't really worthwhile, and the Altar of Dementia combo kills people just as easily when you pass the turn. Also, neither Mikokoro or Selvala are really card advantage like you say in your primer, they're card parity. Card advantage, at least in my book, is only when you get more cards than your opponents.
5 months ago
Hey legendofa. Black white control is an awesome combination, it has that essence of Orzhov without even trying. So, here are my ideas of where the deck could go.
Firstly I think the deck needs a little focus. What do you want from the deck, what do you want it to do. Cards such as Nip Gwyllion, ask what does it add to the deck. You have a discard theme running through it, so let us stick with that. However, keep in mind that you must also stay alive.
So I'd run a full four Tidehollow Sculler, make sure I get to play it turn two. If I hit the hand, I like to hit it hard. So from the Sculler go into Sin Collector at three, then at four go to Disciple of Phenax, then at five Vizkopa Confessor. This way you have plenty of blockers, and life gain with the confessor, but you're still hitting their hand. This sort of deck does work well with Shrieking Affliction (basically a cheaper version of The Rack), but don't feel that is the route you have to go down.
For removal, you need to be quicker off the mark. If you want to go the enchantment route that's fine, but I would run some one mana enchantments in there to slow them down straight away so aggro decks don't run through you. Oppressive Rays is a favourite of mine, in the mid-late game it is less effective, but with the hand destruction, your opponent doesn't have much of a mid-late game. The rays slow your opponent down from the first turn. You can also run Guard Duty, as your creatures aren't really running in. The other one you can run is Cowed by Wisdom, but it doesn't have the same power if not running much draw power. For two mana I'd go the the classic Pacifism, there is no messing about, it gets rid of the creature. Darksteel Mutation still allows them to attack if they boost it etc, but does get rid of the abilities, so whichever is more fitting for the players you're against. You then have Pillory of the Sleepless for three mana, and if you wanted you could run One Thousand Lashes, same as the pillory but stops abilities as well. Running these cards is a win condition in itself, especially if run alongside the confessor. Not the fastest, but it's cruel. I used to run a deck where its win condition was just Blind Obedience extort triggers, and it did feel good! A little expensive for this deck, but you get it from the confessor, and he discards.
Anyway, so how about some draw power? Really I think you have to main options, if you want it instant speed then Succumb to Temptation, but if you're running a load of creatures and enchantments, instant speed for draw isn't very important, so I'd go with Read the Bones.
So there are a few ideas for you if you want to go down the enchantment and discard route. Of course, if you run even more enchantments you can always go down the Sphere of Safety route which is a deck I absolutely love! If you decide to go down a different route from discard and enchantment though, just let me know and I'll throw some more ideas your way.
5 months ago
I absolutely love the deck. After seeing this I am now determined to make my own variation including some of the following suggestions. Btw this is so long because its also a note to myself.
The Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus won't come back because Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker says to return the creature card; they are land cards regardless of what they were on the battlefield. I recommend replacing them with Reliquary Tower and notably Winding Canyons. With all the ways of getting mana on others' turns you can use it quite effectively. Other lands you should consider include: Volrath's Stronghold, Crypt of Agadeem, Westvale Abbey Flip, High Market, Lake of the Dead, Vesuva Maze of Ith and Wasteland (instead of Tectonic Edge.)
Glistening Oil seems a little out of place. Are you using it to make your larger creatures small enough to be returned? If not then you have no reason to play it. If so then you should cut it because there are much better options. You could use Fevered Convulsions to achieve the same thing faster despite the mana investment (and you can use it on enemy creatures.) However, I recommend Sorceress Queen instead, for not only serving the same purpose but also being more versatile and being a creature with power 0 it fits very well.
I don't like Kiku, Night's Flower here because it cant answer anything immediately with summoning sickness and is far less efficient (and fast) than your already insane amount of removal. I recommend replacing it with Zulaport Cutthroat as another Blood Artist. You can also add Falkenrath Noble
At first glance AEther Vial looks really good considering all the 2 and 3 drops. but after thinking about it I realized that there is a far better option you can use: Vedalken Orrery. You may have to spend more mana but you can use it multiple times every every turn rather than once each turn rotation once you get an altar out.
Other cards you could consider are: Marionette Master, Summoner's Egg, Triskelion, Triskelavus, Mesmeric Fiend, Weaponcraft Enthusiast, Noxious Toad, Wild-Field Scarecrow, Dutiful Attendant, Workshop Assistant, Gnawing Zombie, Chimney Imp, Insidious Bookworms, Disciple of Phenax, Fume Spitter, Rotting Rats, Ravenous Rats, Corrupt Court Official, Vampiric Rites, Dark Prophecy, Contamination, Shadows of the Past, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Gate to Phyrexia, Disciple of Griselbrand, Harvester of Souls, Mindlash Sliver, Deathgreeter, Kalastria Healer, Altar of the Brood, Altar of Dementia, Black Market, Disciple of the Vault, Blasting Station, Abyssal Gatekeeper, Bitter Ordeal, Buried Alive, Palace Siege, Soot Imp, Tree of Perdition, Spine of Ish Sah, Trading Post, Solemn Simulacrum, Thrull Surgeon, Slithery Stalker, Ashen-Skin Zubera, Geth's Grimoire, Killing Wave, Necroskitter, Thorn of the Black Rose, Myr Moonvessel, and Arcane Lighthouse (just in case they have a Sigarda, Host of Herons or something.) Also if you can afford it: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.
6 months ago
Hey there! Thanks for looking at my deck (Let 'em Die [Primer: Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker])! Here's some general suggestions for you:
Pawn of Ulamog and Sifter of Skulls are amazing token producers. The eldrazi tokens they make can be used for mana ramping, and can sacrifice themselves for death triggers. Neat! I'm testing out the Fabricate abilities of Weaponcraft Enthusiast and Marionette Master as well.
Smothering Abomination, Harvester of Souls, and Grim Haruspex are great for generating card draw for every creature that dies. Vampiric Rites is a 1-drop enchantment (kinda hard to remove) that gives you card draw. Maybe take out the one-time use spells like Read the Bones for these.
I personally like Deathgreeter over Bottle Gnomes, and it has pretty consistently done a higher amount of life gain. Zulaport Cutthroat is a must-have, IMO. It's often my quickest wincon. Gray Merchant of Asphodel and Falkenrath Noble are good for this too, if you have ways to reduce their power to recur them.
You do have a fair number of things with >1 power, or that boost their power. I might recommend Plagued Rusalka, Fume Spitter, and/or Necropede as ways to reduce the power of your bigger creatures, or as a form of removal against your opponents. Maybe instead of Drakestown Forgotten.
You have a lot of discard effects (which is good!), but several of them are sorcery speed (Sadistic Hypnotist, Brain Weevil, Augur of Skulls) or need to be paid for (Drainpipe Vermin). Or that don't recur at all Sadistic Augermage. I might recommend more stuff like Noxious Toad, Mesmeric Fiend, or Disciple of Phenax. That can be used on each opponents turn.
Scarblade Elite doesn't work unless you have another Assassin in graveyard, and only up to 4 times max, and doesn't even recur itself under Shirei. And I like Dutiful Attendant over things like Death Denied or Gravepurge. Maybe look into Living Death as well?
Hope that's not too much info! Welcome to the Perpetual Weenie Murder Club!
7 months ago
Okay, massive overhaul here. I also realized like an idiot that I didn't actually keep track of everything I took out at the time I was doing this so the list will likely have a few holes. To sum up, I focused my deck much harder on making etb and death-based creatures. Several instants, sorceries, and enchantments were removed in exchange for Alesha-recurrable creatures that do ultimately the same thing, as well as just overall upgrades for some of the creatures and enchantments. I'm also in the process of putting a few more allies into the deck to make for some clustered effects triggering all at once off of etb, but I do not have all of them that I need at the moment such as Drana, Liberator of Malakir and I removed Resolute Blademaster in that line to be put back in once I do. This deck now hates flying, but I hopefully have more damage and control of the board overall. Anyway, here's the (to the best of my memory) outs:
Resolute Blademaster Swarm of Bloodflies Skeletal Grimace Skullclamp King Macar, the Gold-Cursed Rescue from the Underworld Charmbreaker Devils Ankle Shanker Knight of the White Orchid Butcher of the Horde Unburial Rites Disciple of Phenax Sin Collector Priest of the Blood Rite Mardu Ascendancy Marshal's Anthem Akoum Refuge Millikin Elder Cathar Graveblade Marauder
And here are the ins:
Plains Tainted Field Pilgrim's Eye Burnished Hart Stingscourger Hanweir Garrison Feldon of the Third Path Anarchist Karmic Guide Goldnight Commander Auramancer Knight-Captain of Eos Mother of Runes Gift of Immortality Rune-Scarred Demon Disciple of Bolas Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip Viscera Seer Archetype of Finality Noosegraf Mob Bala Ged Thief High Priest of Penance Duergar Hedge-Mage
I'll leave the acquireboard to be looked at to avoid making this monster of a post any longer. but they're all substantially useful cards if anyone would like to peruse it to help my transitions move more quickly. As always, suggestions, comments, possible combos are always welcome and greatly appreciated. I'm extremely indecisive with my decks and constantly finding 'better' cards than what I have. Amd I now have a mostly new maybeboard since most of my maybes have been finally added in a grueling but rewarding process of staring at my broken down deck for hours making decisions.