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Disciple of Phenax
Creature — Human Cleric
When Disciple of Phenax enters the battlefield, target player reveals a number of cards from his or her hand equal to your devotion to black. You choose one of them. That player discards that card.
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Disciple of Phenax Discussion
4 months ago
Cool deck, although in need of tuning. Disciple of Phenax doesn't do a whole lot for the mana that it costs except for giving you 2 devotion. Instead, if you want to continue on the rat theme, I would maybe add Pack Rat or Marrow-Gnawer as a finisher.
Rancid Rats is not really a great card, since its skulk + deathtouch combo is working against eachother, since you wont really want to attack with it, because you want to leave it up as a blocker. So the extra mana for the skulk is just wasted. Instead, I would consider adding either Drainpipe Vermin or Swarm of Rats.
Radiant Fountain, this card doesn't really have a place in the deck, since gaining you 2 life is not really worth it, if you are in need of black mana, since this only produces a colorless.
Murder is a good card, but there are better ones for the same cost, or less. Such as Hero's Downfall or Go for the Throat or Doom Blade.
I like the inclusion of Supernatural Stamina it's a pretty cool card that you don't see in play very often. Please keep it.
overall, I like this deck, since it includes rats.. And I like rats
8 months ago
Looks good so far...Here are some quick ideas for you...Endrek Sahr, Master Breeder makes 5 tokens just from casting your commander, if you feel like you run out of dorks too fast. Some more 1 power guys with cool ETB/death effects: Disciple of Phenax, Golgari Thug, Weaponcraft Enthusiast, Pilgrim's Eye, & Thorn of the Black Rose. Living Death & Victimize to recover from removal. Some more permanents that will synergize: Gate to the Afterlife, Genesis Chamber, Dark Prophecy, Skullclamp. I'm not sure about a lot of the discard angle the more I think about it, discard can be very hard to make work in multiplayer. You may really have to go all in on that strategy to make it work well. Soldevi Adnate is a lesser known sac outlet that should be awesome. Nether Traitor keeps coming back for more fun. Hope this was helpful, happy gathering!!
11 months ago
11 months ago
Hey thanks --
The winning combos are reanimation loops + a drain:
Bloodghast is inconsistent -- will cut.
Bloodthrone Vampire gives an instant speed, repeatable sac outlet that can sac itself to its own ability, so its main purpose is death triggers -- but, it's on the chopping block
Deathgreeter -- will cut
Disciple of Phenax -- targetted discard on every turn? on the chopping block
Falkenrath Noble -- will cut
Hell's Caretaker -- extremely valuable, but on the chopping block.. it is grindy
Infernal Darkness -- will re-add
Vampiric Rites -- m8, this card is bad. but i'll add it to maybe
Mindslicer -- will re-add
Mesmeric Orb -- I might consider this as a way to set up a living death loop
Ad Nauseam -- eh, sure, why not, it's a great card.
Wasteland I could probably find room for, always need to destroy pesky lands.
Inventors' Fair is a good idea for this deck. I always need one of the altars.
Toxic Deluge -- will re-add
11 months ago
Cut -- Abyssal Gatekeeper (unlike Fleshbag and Co, this can hurt more than it helps since it isn't around to feed itself) Bloodghast (no real advantage with Shirei, and is inconsistent as redundancy), Bloodthrone Vampire (doesn't offer you anything for feeding it), Coffin Queen (better with high cost ETBs), Crypt Rats (doesn't function with your commander), Deathgreeter (life gain is pointless), Disciple of Phenax, Falkenrath Noble, Hell's Caretaker (too grindy).
Also consider, Dance of the Dead, Mindslicer (you only need to sac this once with a draw engine and you've basically won), Toxic Deluge, Mesmeric Orb (most efficient yard filler ever), and Ad Nauseam.
You could also safely cut some of the 0 mana creatures since they don't really do anything, Liliana, Heretical Healer Flip, and Dark Prophecy (you already have a lot of draw, and this can actually kill you if you have a slow or unclear path to victory).
Some additional lands to consider: Inventors' Fair, you have enough artifacts to satisfy it, and it tutors some of your most needed cards; Westvale Abbey Flip can get you out of a jam if you pay too much life; and Wasteland/Tectonic Edge/Dust Bowl help you play a little more into Crucible of Worlds.
11 months ago
illumfolly, needs Infernal Darkness, and I'd prefer if you had a gameplan beyond "make things come back from the yard a lot." Can you think of any combos that fit? Mike&Trike might work, especially since Triskelion can function with Shirei to clear out your opponent's boards in between turns, but the deck would need more of a reanimator subtheme to support it. You can definitely cut a lot of the 3 and 4 mana stuff, like Disciple of Phenax and Falkenrath Noble.
enpc that is exactly what I was talking about when I mentioned making alternate lists. You did a great job of streamlining and not being attached to cards or lines of play, which can be really difficult when evaluating your own deck, so good job, really nice work.
I think the cards you cut are also really great examples of how paper lists often look different than in-theory, competitive, "optimized" lists. There are certain cards that are super fun and interactive to play with in real life, like Titania or Gift of Immortality from your list, that you don't want to cut from you deck because of advantages they afford you, the player, like fun or meta advantages, but become slightly outclassed when you move into a vacuum with no budget, where all you're trying to do is just win as quickly as you can. That doesn't mean it wrong or non-competitive for players to play those cards, just like players aren't non-competitive if their decks don't look exactly like the lists posted here. It just just means that the cards they're playing are affording them different advantages than what is generally considered optimal.
Anyway, discourse over, you should totally port your primer over to the new list, or link back to your other decklist, or both. (Also, I love your Wrath of God alter, definitely keep that included.)
Lastly, and this may just be me, but I totally think you could keep Crucible of Worlds in the streamlined version, especially if you freed up some u-land slots for Wasteland, Tectonic Edge and maybe Dust Bowl. Do you really need Mikokoro, Center of the Sea and Miren, the Moaning Well? The life isn't really worthwhile, and the Altar of Dementia combo kills people just as easily when you pass the turn. Also, neither Mikokoro or Selvala are really card advantage like you say in your primer, they're card parity. Card advantage, at least in my book, is only when you get more cards than your opponents.
1 year ago
Hey legendofa. Black white control is an awesome combination, it has that essence of Orzhov without even trying. So, here are my ideas of where the deck could go.
Firstly I think the deck needs a little focus. What do you want from the deck, what do you want it to do. Cards such as Nip Gwyllion, ask what does it add to the deck. You have a discard theme running through it, so let us stick with that. However, keep in mind that you must also stay alive.
So I'd run a full four Tidehollow Sculler, make sure I get to play it turn two. If I hit the hand, I like to hit it hard. So from the Sculler go into Sin Collector at three, then at four go to Disciple of Phenax, then at five Vizkopa Confessor. This way you have plenty of blockers, and life gain with the confessor, but you're still hitting their hand. This sort of deck does work well with Shrieking Affliction (basically a cheaper version of The Rack), but don't feel that is the route you have to go down.
For removal, you need to be quicker off the mark. If you want to go the enchantment route that's fine, but I would run some one mana enchantments in there to slow them down straight away so aggro decks don't run through you. Oppressive Rays is a favourite of mine, in the mid-late game it is less effective, but with the hand destruction, your opponent doesn't have much of a mid-late game. The rays slow your opponent down from the first turn. You can also run Guard Duty, as your creatures aren't really running in. The other one you can run is Cowed by Wisdom, but it doesn't have the same power if not running much draw power. For two mana I'd go the the classic Pacifism, there is no messing about, it gets rid of the creature. Darksteel Mutation still allows them to attack if they boost it etc, but does get rid of the abilities, so whichever is more fitting for the players you're against. You then have Pillory of the Sleepless for three mana, and if you wanted you could run One Thousand Lashes, same as the pillory but stops abilities as well. Running these cards is a win condition in itself, especially if run alongside the confessor. Not the fastest, but it's cruel. I used to run a deck where its win condition was just Blind Obedience extort triggers, and it did feel good! A little expensive for this deck, but you get it from the confessor, and he discards.
Anyway, so how about some draw power? Really I think you have to main options, if you want it instant speed then Succumb to Temptation, but if you're running a load of creatures and enchantments, instant speed for draw isn't very important, so I'd go with Read the Bones.
So there are a few ideas for you if you want to go down the enchantment and discard route. Of course, if you run even more enchantments you can always go down the Sphere of Safety route which is a deck I absolutely love! If you decide to go down a different route from discard and enchantment though, just let me know and I'll throw some more ideas your way.
1 year ago
I absolutely love the deck. After seeing this I am now determined to make my own variation including some of the following suggestions. Btw this is so long because its also a note to myself.
The Inkmoth Nexus and Blinkmoth Nexus won't come back because Shirei, Shizo's Caretaker says to return the creature card; they are land cards regardless of what they were on the battlefield. I recommend replacing them with Reliquary Tower and notably Winding Canyons. With all the ways of getting mana on others' turns you can use it quite effectively. Other lands you should consider include: Volrath's Stronghold, Crypt of Agadeem, Westvale Abbey Flip, High Market, Lake of the Dead, Vesuva Maze of Ith and Wasteland (instead of Tectonic Edge.)
Glistening Oil seems a little out of place. Are you using it to make your larger creatures small enough to be returned? If not then you have no reason to play it. If so then you should cut it because there are much better options. You could use Fevered Convulsions to achieve the same thing faster despite the mana investment (and you can use it on enemy creatures.) However, I recommend Sorceress Queen instead, for not only serving the same purpose but also being more versatile and being a creature with power 0 it fits very well.
I don't like Kiku, Night's Flower here because it cant answer anything immediately with summoning sickness and is far less efficient (and fast) than your already insane amount of removal. I recommend replacing it with Zulaport Cutthroat as another Blood Artist. You can also add Falkenrath Noble
At first glance AEther Vial looks really good considering all the 2 and 3 drops. but after thinking about it I realized that there is a far better option you can use: Vedalken Orrery. You may have to spend more mana but you can use it multiple times every every turn rather than once each turn rotation once you get an altar out.
Other cards you could consider are: Marionette Master, Summoner's Egg, Triskelion, Triskelavus, Mesmeric Fiend, Weaponcraft Enthusiast, Noxious Toad, Wild-Field Scarecrow, Dutiful Attendant, Workshop Assistant, Gnawing Zombie, Chimney Imp, Insidious Bookworms, Disciple of Phenax, Fume Spitter, Rotting Rats, Ravenous Rats, Corrupt Court Official, Vampiric Rites, Dark Prophecy, Contamination, Shadows of the Past, Sheoldred, Whispering One, Gate to Phyrexia, Disciple of Griselbrand, Harvester of Souls, Mindlash Sliver, Deathgreeter, Kalastria Healer, Altar of the Brood, Altar of Dementia, Black Market, Disciple of the Vault, Blasting Station, Abyssal Gatekeeper, Bitter Ordeal, Buried Alive, Palace Siege, Soot Imp, Tree of Perdition, Spine of Ish Sah, Trading Post, Solemn Simulacrum, Thrull Surgeon, Slithery Stalker, Ashen-Skin Zubera, Geth's Grimoire, Killing Wave, Necroskitter, Thorn of the Black Rose, Myr Moonvessel, and Arcane Lighthouse (just in case they have a Sigarda, Host of Herons or something.) Also if you can afford it: The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.